Can you practice in an adjacent bunker to your ball ?

rulefan

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And if Ian is playing with someone likeminded who also regards practicing a shot in an adjacent bunker as something one should not do - are the colluding to a change in the rules of golf ? And thus both disqualified ?

Are you saying that by agreeing to not using a rule that permits but does not compel an action is a breach?
 

Backsticks

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Are you saying that by agreeing to not using a rule that permits but does not compel an action is a breach?
In a way. If you are making a new rule - which this hypothetical pair are - effectively, between us, for our match, we "forbid the practicing in an adjacent bunker", then have you not added your own local rule to the rules of golf?
And you are not permitted to make up your own rules. The breach lies in modifying of the rules of golf, rather than the detail of the rule itself - the non using of the specific permitting but not compelling element of the rule.

For an analogy, the pro tournament rule of not changing ball type. We amateurs might get our starting ball all the way around. So no ball switch. Even though we had the option. Or we might switch from a ProV1 to a Pinnacle as we lose balls as we go. But if on the first, two players decide they are going to play according to the pros local rule, and no ball change permitted, they have added a local rule to their match, with no authority, to change the rule that there is no such prohibition on them switching balls.
 

Steven Rules

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And if Ian is playing with someone likeminded who also regards practicing a shot in an adjacent bunker as something one should not do - are the colluding to a change in the rules of golf ? And thus both disqualified ?
No and no. There is no rule that says you must take practice swings so, by deciding not to take practice swings, they are not agreeing to ignore a Rule or penalty, which would be a breach of 1.3b(1).
 

Steven Rules

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In a way. If you are making a new rule - which this hypothetical pair are - effectively, between us, for our match, we "forbid the practicing in an adjacent bunker", then have you not added your own local rule to the rules of golf?
And you are not permitted to make up your own rules. The breach lies in modifying of the rules of golf, rather than the detail of the rule itself - the non using of the specific permitting but not compelling element of the rule.
My mate and me:

*Even though we can use tees that are four inches in length, as a challenge for this round let's agree to use tees that are less than two inches long.

*Even though we can carry up to 14 clubs, let's just use seven clubs for this round.

*Even though the teeing area is up to two club lengths deep let's tee up within 6 inches of the front for this round.

*Even though we can use any ball we like, let's use Optimas for this round.

*Even though we are allowed to take practice swings, let's play this round without taking any.

Bizarre behaviour, but if that's what you want to do....

The one proviso is that you can't impose a penalty for breaching any of these self-imposed restrictions. (1.3c(3))
 

Backsticks

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My mate and me:

*Even though we can use tees that are four inches in length, as a challenge for this round let's agree to use tees that are less than two inches long.

*Even though we can carry up to 14 clubs, let's just use seven clubs for this round.

*Even though the teeing area is up to two club lengths deep let's tee up within 6 inches of the front for this round.

*Even though we can use any ball we like, let's use Optimas for this round.

*Even though we are allowed to take practice swings, let's play this round without taking any.

Bizarre behaviour, but if that's what you want to do....

The one proviso is that you can't impose a penalty for breaching any of these self-imposed restrictions. (1.3c(3))
The penalty comes from agreeing to add any of the above rules. If you chose off your own bat to carry fewer than 14 clubs thats fine. But once you agree with someone that we will not carry more than 7, then you are changing the rule. And you are obliged to play by the rules of golf plus any local rules as the R&A/USGA have written them, not your personal modifications.
 

Backsticks

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See #63.

What Rule is being breached? Specifically.
Rule 1 ?

"Playing by the Rules.
1.3

Playing by the Rules​

1.3a

Meaning of “Rules”; Terms of the Competition​

The term “Rules” means:
  • Rules 1-25 and the definitions in these Rules of Golf, and
  • Any “Local Rules” the Committee adopts for the competition or the course."


Not a modified set of rules.
 

Colin L

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The penalty comes from agreeing to add any of the above rules. If you chose off your own bat to carry fewer than 14 clubs thats fine. But once you agree with someone that we will not carry more than 7, then you are changing the rule. And you are obliged to play by the rules of golf plus any local rules as the R&A/USGA have written them, not your personal modifications.
You are misleading yourself by thinking that Steven's inventive collection of possible agreements are rules. They're not. They're just how two people on a day have decided to play which they could do entirely within the Rules while sticking to what they had agreed. That does not add up to agreeing to ignore any Rule or penalty they know applies".

Just ask yourself if it is within the Rules to play with only 7 clubs. The answer will say it all. Which is just as well for all those 4 club fun competitions that go on.
 

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Just ask yourself if it is within the Rules to play with only 7 clubs. The answer will say it all. Which is just as well for all those 4 club fun competitions that go on.
Yes, but they are not qualifying competitions. 4 club competitions have moved outside the rules of golf.
 

Backsticks

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How has the Rule been modified? The Rule says 'you may' not 'you must'.
It has not been changed, to my knowledge.

The point is that two players are agreeing to modify a rule that does indeed say 'you may', to 'you may not'. Because they disagree with the rule being that you may. The breach is the agreeing to modify a rule, not what they do subsequently (practicing or not from an adjacent bunker).
If they say nothing, and simply dont make such practice strokes, there is no issue. But if they agree that they are both of the same opinion, and will therefore play their match with that option unavailable, whether from their ethical beliefs or traditionalism or whatever, they then have changed the rules they are playing under.
 

Colin L

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It has not been changed, to my knowledge.

The point is that two players are agreeing to modify a rule that does indeed say 'you may', to 'you may not'. Because they disagree with the rule being that you may. The breach is the agreeing to modify a rule, not what they do subsequently (practicing or not from an adjacent bunker).
If they say nothing, and simply dont make such practice strokes, there is no issue. But if they agree that they are both of the same opinion, and will therefore play their match with that option unavailable, whether from their ethical beliefs or traditionalism or whatever, they then have changed the rules they are playing under.
I would give this one up, if I were you. It's going nowhere. You are completely missing the point: there is no rule which states that you are allowed to make practice swings that touch the sand in another bunker. The reason why you can do it is simply because it isn't forbidden. There is no Rule to "modify".
 

Backsticks

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I would give this one up, if I were you. It's going nowhere. You are completely missing the point: there is no rule which states that you are allowed to make practice swings that touch the sand in another bunker. The reason why you can do it is simply because it isn't forbidden. There is no Rule to "modify".
You are missing the point I think.

Are players allowed to add to the rules of golf ? If so, I will grant you there is no issue.
 

rulefan

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You are missing the point I think.

Are players allowed to add to the rules of golf ? If so, I will grant you there is no issue.
They are not adding to The Rules of Golf. But what is more important is that they are not changing the Rules of Golf. As has been said - there is no Rule to change.

1.3b(1)/2 – In Order to Agree to Ignore a Rule or Penalty, Players Must Be Aware the Rule Exists​

Rule 1.3b(1) does not apply and there is no penalty if players agree to waive a Rule that they are not aware of or fail to apply a penalty that they do not know exists.

As such a rule does not exist that cannot be aware that it exits
 
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Steven Rules

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I'll have one last try.

effectively, between us, for our match, we "forbid the practicing in an adjacent bunker", then have you not added your own local rule to the rules of golf?

It depends what you mean by "added your own local rule".

If you mean agreeing to something like this:

"Even though the Rules don't probibit these actions, for this round let's agree to (a) putt with our eyes closed, (b) hop on our left leg between strokes, and (c) not take any practice swings in adjacent bunkers....."

Then there is no problem at all so far. We haven't broken any Rules yet - not even 1.3a or 1.3b(1) - by making an agreement to abide by these self-imposed requirements.

But if we then wanted to go to the next level of enforcing our little agreement:

"....and every time we don't abide by our pact then we impose a general penalty on ourselves."

As we are not agreeing to ignore any Rule or penalty, the mere making of an agreement to impose a general penalty for a breach of the pact is not a breach of 1.3b(1). But if we followed through on it, and actually imposed the made-up penalty then we would be breaching the Rules. As I said in #64, you aren't permitted to incur a penalty for breaching any of these self-imposed restrictions. That would be a breach of 1.3c(3).
 

Steven Rules

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Addendum. You seem set on labelling your self-imposed restrictions as "local rules". They are not "local rules". They are a self-imposed pact with your mate that doesn't breach the Rules of Golf. Only the Committee has the power to adopt Local Rules for the course or the competition.
 

rulefan

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3. Local Rules for General Play

A Local Rule is a modification of a Rule or an additional Rule that the Committee adopts for general play or a particular competition. The Committee is responsible for deciding whether to adopt any Local Rules and for making sure they are consistent with the principles found in Section 8.

Rule 1.3c(3) states that the Committee does not have the authority to apply penalties in a different way than stated in the Rules of Golf. Therefore a Committee must not use a Local Rule to waive, modify or apply a penalty.

The above is from the Rules of Golf in support of posts #78 & #79
 
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