Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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bluewolf said:
As a brief diversion, exactly how have you been affected by this supposed lack of Sovereignty? 😉

Anyway, as long as we can get nice bottles of red then where's the problem?
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I can't smack my kids anymore! :ROFLMAO:

Europe can shove it's red wine where the sun doesn't shine, New World is the future (y)
 
bluewolf said:
As a brief diversion, exactly how have you been affected by this supposed lack of Sovereignty? 😉?
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Apart from restrictions on trade deals, attempting to remove our seat at the IMO, plans for an EU Army, EU law superceeding UK in all cases, not being to regulate our own borders (I could go on). absolutely none at all:oops:

Ok the Army hasn’t effected me personally, but the other have in my working life directly...I could say more, but Not allowed.

... getting out might be easier if they hadn’t grabbed all these powers Remainers keep telling me we can’t survive without
 
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Dellboy said:
The EU will implode within 4-5 years once we have gone, lack of money, in fighting between countries and soon there will be other counties lining up to leave the corrupt dictatorship once they see the world wont stop spinning outside of the EU.
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If they impeach Hungary for not accepting refugees, their Prez will say “screw you, we’re offski”...no Referendum no nothing. Watch their neighbours follow... really interesting. Our PM is only pretending as I’ve been saying for months Be delighted to be proved wrong!
 
IanM said:
Apart from restrictions on trade deals, attempting to remove our seat at the IMO, plans for an EU Army, EU law superceeding UK in all cases, not being to regulate our own borders (I could go on). absolutely none at all:oops:

Ok the Army hasn’t effected me personally, but the other have in my working life directly...I could say more, but Not allowed.

The post Referendum ongoing Remain Campaign also tells me that without the EU, we cannot function and would have all sorts of really awful laws seems to confirm this. But of course, they might be lying.
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Ok then, the Trade deals response will only be fully understood when we have left the EU and see what deals we can negotiate.
I can't comment on the IMO as I have no knowledge of it.
The EU Army appears a dead duck as we would have a veto anyway.
EU law does supercede UK law, but in all honesty, I haven't really seen any real negatives from that. I have seen several positives though.
We can control our own borders, we just don't as it's too expensive and we need immigration to continue economic growth.

Sorry for the rushed and clumsy answer, I'm in a rush to get out of the house..

My response to my question is that I haven't seen any real negatives to our supposed loss of Sovereignty. Maybe it's because I consider myself as much European (German Mother/Irish Father) as I do British. My viewpoint may be different to most. I'll mourn our loss of a social connection. Our position as a Global Player is also significantly under threat as we'll be dealing with major trading blocks all over the World. We won't have a strong hand..

Anyway.. Must go ;-)
 
Item one. That wasn’t what I was referring to
Item two. Worth researching , it’s serious
Item three. We’ll see. I found this weeks pics of uk forces with eu flags on kit worrying. You can only veto what you get consulted on
Item four. So that’s a yes.
Item five. Some immigrantion yes, Open no. Do we have surplus jobs and services in the economy? Far from it.

My ancestors Russians and Lithuanians, so I’m not exactly full Brit either. Your bit about influence is fair enough, but depends on will of the government....not seeing much of that currently
 
IanM said:
Item one. That wasn’t what I was referring to
Item two. Worth researching , it’s serious
Item three. We’ll see. I found this weeks pics of uk forces with eu flags on kit worrying. You can only veto what you get consulted on
Item four. So that’s a yes.
Item five. Some immigrantion yes, Open no. Do we have surplus jobs and services in the economy? Far from it.

My ancestors Russians and Lithuanians, so I’m not exactly full Brit either. Your bit about influence is fair enough, but depends on will of the government....not seeing much of that currently
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I suspect we're seeing the same issues but want different solutions.
With regards to immigration, we can close as many borders as we want. If we don't invest in policing them then who's going to stop people coming in? And if we do stop them, who's going to grow the population and in turn grow the economy?

I've said my bit on EU law.

The will of the government is the real issue here. By detaching ourselves from Europe, we've actually given more power to the people most at fault for our current predicament. Career, trough snouting politicos are rubbing their hands together.

FWIW, the biggest effect on me and my family has been the downward pressure on wages. All my bills have stayed fairly static. Who's at fault for that? Austerity wasn't an EU position. It's purely a domestic one, caused by a global crash. Some would have us believe that it's caused by cheap labour from Europe. Bit of a strange one as all the Europeans that have ever worked for me have been on exactly the same wage as the locals.
 
Aston Martin Chief Executive Officer Andy Palmer said that Brexit is “a disaster for the industry on both sides of the Channel if there is no negotiated exit.”

Now where is that master of risk and issues management - Chris Grayling - when you need him as we need him to tell this car boss that he is wrong...that he - Chris Grayling - knows more about cars than trains and so should be listened to as he is being listened to on trains and that Palmer is mistaken - he is project fear.
 
R
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Aston Martin Chief Executive Officer Andy Palmer said that Brexit is “a disaster for the industry on both sides of the Channel if there is no negotiated exit.”

Now where is that master of risk and issues management - Chris Grayling - when you need him as we need him to tell this car boss that he is wrong...that he - Chris Grayling - knows more about cars than trains and so should be listened to as he is being listened to on trains and that Palmer is mistaken - he is project fear.
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Remainers have voted to have Grayling as the Minister for Brexit.. it will all be sorted out in record time ..
 
drive4show said:
...
Europe can shove it's red wine where the sun doesn't shine, New World is the future (y)
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Well, as a consumer, that's your choice - and there are plenty of poor (as in bad/awful) wines from Europe being sold in UK. But it's not tarrffs that are 'protecting' wine from non-EU imports! EU Tariff on NZ wine is a quite reasonable 6.5 to 8p per bottle. It's the UK government that's costing consumers the most - at between £2.16 and £2.77 per bottle, EU sourced or not!

Btw. I'd agree with your sentiment if 'most of' was added after '... shove'! Still some great (and even great value) wine from Europe!
 
bluewolf said:
I suspect we're seeing the same issues but want different solutions.
With regards to immigration, we can close as many borders as we want. If we don't invest in policing them then who's going to stop people coming in? And if we do stop them, who's going to grow the population and in turn grow the economy?

I've said my bit on EU law.

The will of the government is the real issue here. By detaching ourselves from Europe, we've actually given more power to the people most at fault for our current predicament. Career, trough snouting politicos are rubbing their hands together.

FWIW, the biggest effect on me and my family has been the downward pressure on wages. All my bills have stayed fairly static. Who's at fault for that? Austerity wasn't an EU position. It's purely a domestic one, caused by a global crash. Some would have us believe that it's caused by cheap labour from Europe. Bit of a strange one as all the Europeans that have ever worked for me have been on exactly the same wage as the locals.
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Some good points.

However, the argument that seemed quite compelling for many was that 'the power' for UK folk to remove 'poor performers' (however individuals defined that term) was being removed. And a bunch of 'faceless, unelected -and so unremovable -bureaucrats' making the decisions on how to use the funds provided by UK taxpayers!.

If MPs are 'trough snouting politicos.. rubbing their hands together', how would you describe the EU bureaucracy?
 
Unlike Tusk, Juncker and Barnier , Boris has to face an electorate: they have their jobs irrespective of public perception.
 
drdel said:
Unlike Tusk, Juncker and Barnier , Boris has to face an electorate: they have their jobs irrespective of public perception.
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Er...While Barnier was appointed to his current position, he was elected as an MEP. I'm not sure what his status would be if he was ever 'unelected'!

Tusk and Juncker were both elected to their curent positions - such elections take place every 2.5 years, a rather shorter period than is usual for UK MPs.

With a majority of over 15k, I believe Boris would need to do something pretty outlandish (even for him!) to be replaced, either by the Conservative Party or at an election!

So the concept of EU folk not having to face/be responsible/accountable to an electorate, while MPs do, is something of an illusion!
 
Foxholer said:
With a majority of over 15k, I believe Boris would need to do something pretty outlandish (even for him!) to be replaced, either by the Conservative Party or at an election!
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Think you'll find BoJo's majority has diminished to about 5k...
Still sufficient though, for him [I suspect] to keep his seat...

And, I don't recollect ever seeing the names of Barnier, Tusk or Juncker on a ballot paper here in the UK...
Suspect they'd get short shrift if they did...
 
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MegaSteve said:
Think you'll find BoJo's majority has diminished to about 5k...
Still sufficient though, for him [I suspect] to keep his seat...
...
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Ah! Good point! Somehow missed the 2017 result!

MegaSteve said:
...
And, I don't recollect ever seeing the names of Barnier, Tusk or Juncker on a ballot paper here in the UK...
Suspect they'd get short shrift if they did...
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As would Farage in most EU countries! Not all that different to the way extremely capable candidates of the 'wrong' party in safe seats (like Boris's) in UK electorates! but that's the version of 'democracy' that UK has! More voters didn't want the Conservatives to rule than did in 2015 - and more-so in 2017 - yet they still won the election! Is that truly 'democratic'?

Tusk and Juncker were still elected - by the agreed process, Tusk's 'electorate' included UK's representative (presumably David Cameron on the European Council, as it's Theresa May currently), Juncker was elected by the EU Parliament (again the 'agreed by Treaty' process). This body, of course, included/includes UK representatives who have been 'democratically' elected.
 
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