Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hobbit]

Oh look. Michel Barnier has said that he wishes to offer a different proposal for the NI border. Checks on goods to be carried out away from the border, and that any backstop proposal should recognise and respect the UK's territorial integrity.

Isn't that exactly what the UK has been asking for? I look forward to hearing from the hysterical on here who have screamed long and hard that the UK needed to bend further in its negotiations. Is it the Brexiteers that are stupid, or duped, or is it some rabid Remainers that need to have a good look at themselves?

 

[bobmac]

Oh look. Michel Barnier has said that he wishes to offer a different proposal for the NI border. Checks on goods to be carried out away from the border, and that any backstop proposal should recognise and respect the UK's territorial integrity.

Isn't that exactly what the UK has been asking for? I look forward to hearing from the hysterical on here who have screamed long and hard that the UK needed to bend further in its negotiations. Is it the Brexiteers that are stupid, or duped, or is it some rabid Remainers that need to have a good look at themselves?

You just know there will be a ''but what if..............''

 

[Hobbit]

You just know there will be a ''but what if..............''

Best not mention the 4 founding principles that the EU said they wouldn't cross. One or two are starting to look a little fuzzy.

 

[chrisd]

Best not mention the 4 founding principles that the EU said they wouldn't cross. One or two are starting to look a little fuzzy.

Exactly Brian. So why does the EU not offer now a hugely better deal than they did in the Cameron negotiations and address our concerns over immigration, self law making etc etc and then tie the offer to another vote on the whole matter of staying in, or going "no deal". I'm still convinced we would stay in if the EU would do this and even more convinced that the EU is doomed if we prosper when leaving and, more importantly, other member countries who are already fed up with the open border policy for immigration decide to follow our lead.

 

[MegaSteve]

Exactly Brian. So why does the EU not offer now a hugely better deal than they did in the Cameron negotiations and address our concerns over immigration, self law making etc etc and then tie the offer to another vote on the whole matter of staying in, or going "no deal". I'm still convinced we would stay in if the EU would do this and even more convinced that the EU is doomed if we prosper when leaving and, more importantly, other member countries who are already fed up with the open border policy for immigration decide to follow our lead.

DaveCams paymasters ['big business'] didn't want him rocking the boat too much...
So, he probably didn't make his [our] point with much conviction/force...
However, Dave thought he was a winner [bless]...
And, he was going to convince us [the people], that despite all its faults, the EU was a 'club' still worthy of our membership...
To coin a phrase... We weren't for turning...

 

[Mudball]

Passporting may well be relevant if it has to return a dividend to the parent company. It was a little tongue in cheek anyway as financial passporting will be resolved. There's billions being moved every day. Not passporting it would cause untold damage to all sides.

As I understand it, Passporting not relevant here as this is about repatriation of profits/losses. This is more like foreign direct investment. Passporting may become relevant only if they are taking the money and moving it through the system via some form of financial engineering via investment vehicles blah blah... if they adopt the bland way, they will be fine and wont be impacted. The unknown challenge is how is the post-Brexit UK going allow repatriation to EU firms. Equally, Kopperberg could choose to setup in Caymen, so profits are not affected at all.

I know your Passporting statement was tongue in cheek, so lets leave it there. As i said, the good news story is that someone is investing here and thats the important bit. We need more - Brexit or no-Brexit.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Exactly Brian. So why does the EU not offer now a hugely better deal than they did in the Cameron negotiations and address our concerns over immigration, self law making etc etc and then tie the offer to another vote on the whole matter of staying in, or going "no deal". I'm still convinced we would stay in if the EU would do this and even more convinced that the EU is doomed if we prosper when leaving and, more importantly, other member countries who are already fed up with the open border policy for immigration decide to follow our lead.

Because I believe they know they're doomed without us Chris. They know if we go then others will follow and the whole sorry house of cards crumbles, so despite what their own manufacturers tell them, they'd rather cut their own throats in the process of dragging us down than do a deal as it will set a precedent for others. Am I surprised they're prepared to concede on their founding principles: no, I'm not. They've shown in the past they're prepared to turn a blind eye to stuff when it suits them so I'm not surprised they'll do something now that their threats aren't working as well as they'd like.

 

[chrisd]

Because I believe they know they're doomed without us Chris. They know if we go then others will follow and the whole sorry house of cards crumbles, so despite what their own manufacturers tell them, they'd rather cut their own throats in the process of dragging us down than do a deal as it will set a precedent for others. Am I surprised they're prepared to concede on their founding principles: no, I'm not. They've shown in the past they're prepared to turn a blind eye to stuff when it suits them so I'm not surprised they'll do something now that their threats aren't working as well as they'd like.

But, and I agree with your post entirely, reform the club and persuade us to stay and I doubt that it'll fail, win win situation for everyone

 

[Blue in Munich]

But, and I agree with your post entirely, reform the club and persuade us to stay and I doubt that it'll fail, win win situation for everyone

Can't agree with that unless there are substantial changes Chris, and they will never happen. The EU will continue to allow lame duck economies to join in their ambition to form a European superstate which the net contributors will have to keep afloat, the matter of the accounts is another sticking point and the issue that they, or certain member states, apply rules when it suits and ignore them when it doesn't. It needs a total clear out at the top and a new direction to persuade me to stay, and in my opinion there are too many snouts in the trough for that to come to pass.

 

[chrisd]

Can't agree with that unless there are substantial changes Chris, and they will never happen. The EU will continue to allow lame duck economies to join in their ambition to form a European superstate which the net contributors will have to keep afloat, the matter of the accounts is another sticking point and the issue that they, or certain member states, apply rules when it suits and ignore them when it doesn't. It needs a total clear out at the top and a new direction to persuade me to stay, and in my opinion there are too many snouts in the trough for that to come to pass.

Once again, I feel the same and did vote for Brexit for all these reasons, but, run properly, legally and financially, it does bring benefits to everyone. I guess they'll never be able to turn it round as those running it are clearly on a power trip and will bend and break the rules as and when. It's a shame as a functioning EU brings poorer nations up to a better standard which is good for everyone in the long term , , but if it isn't going to work then we're best out at the earliest stage and, let's face it, they never wanted us in in the first place!

 

[Blue in Munich]

Once again, I feel the same and did vote for Brexit for all these reasons, but, run properly, legally and financially, it does bring benefits to everyone. I guess they'll never be able to turn it round as those running it are clearly on a power trip and will bend and break the rules as and when. It's a shame as a functioning EU brings poorer nations up to a better standard which is good for everyone in the long term , , but if it isn't going to work then we're best out at the earliest stage and, let's face it, they never wanted us in in the first place!

And I'd agree that properly run both legally and financially it can be greatly beneficial: sadly I don't believe it will ever happen. I also have concerns that whether we leave now or stay, the whole thing will come tumbling down if some of the rumours about the state of finances and banks in some member states are true, and I'd rather be outside without financial liability when it happens than inside and looking at a huge bill.

 

[Hobbit]

Exactly Brian. So why does the EU not offer now a hugely better deal than they did in the Cameron negotiations and address our concerns over immigration, self law making etc etc and then tie the offer to another vote on the whole matter of staying in, or going "no deal". I'm still convinced we would stay in if the EU would do this and even more convinced that the EU is doomed if we prosper when leaving and, more importantly, other member countries who are already fed up with the open border policy for immigration decide to follow our lead.

I had hoped that the EU would be more creative and recognise that there areas within the EU structure that needed reviewing in an effort to address the growth in the far right. There's now a Farage in a number of EU countries, some of which are in positions of power, and causing a number f fundamental issues for the EU. That, and the growing federalism seeing more and more control being centralised in Brussels.

On immigration; the EU is considering taking Hungary to court over its refusal to allow migration. Italy is refusing vessel after vessel full of rescued migrants. Juncker wants 10,000 EU controlled border guards - that's guards in a country who will be controlled from Brussels.

Defence; Macron is pushing for the EU defence army. Not a bad thing when you just can't trust Trump to support NATO. However, the DEFENCE bit appears to be a misnomer as the force will include a global intervention force. Merkel supports it and has said she wants the UK included whatever the outcome of Brexit. Why? The UK has the second largest military in the EU.

2021 to 2027 budget; the UK contributions are scheduled to rise to £21bn from 2021. Take off the rebate, which the EU have said they want to end, and that leaves a net payment of £15bn, as rise of pushing 45%.

A trading bloc, with some integration in common operational areas, but how can a non-federalist country like the UK ever reconcile itself to being in the current version of the EU?

 

[woody69]

Because I believe they know they're doomed without us Chris. They know if we go then others will follow and the whole sorry house of cards crumbles, so despite what their own manufacturers tell them, they'd rather cut their own throats in the process of dragging us down than do a deal as it will set a precedent for others. Am I surprised they're prepared to concede on their founding principles: no, I'm not. They've shown in the past they're prepared to turn a blind eye to stuff when it suits them so I'm not surprised they'll do something now that their threats aren't working as well as they'd like.

I think the EU will do fine without the UK. We really do appear to have an over inflated level of self-importance don't we.

 

[Foxholer]

Because I believe they know they're doomed without us Chris. They know if we go then others will follow and the whole sorry house of cards crumbles, so despite what their own manufacturers tell them, they'd rather cut their own throats in the process of dragging us down than do a deal as it will set a precedent for others. Am I surprised they're prepared to concede on their founding principles: no, I'm not. They've shown in the past they're prepared to turn a blind eye to stuff when it suits them so I'm not surprised they'll do something now that their threats aren't working as well as they'd like.

I think the EU will do fine without the UK. We really do appear to have an over inflated level of self-importance don't we.

My view too!

Both will however, imo, be 'poorer' for the split!

The EU does, imo, need some sort of reform so that more oversight - of both financial and policy aspects - is returned to those funding the 'projects' being implemented. (Con)Federalism as a form of government is not necessarily bad - it works pretty well in Canada and US. The 'sticking point' is in getting the balance of power between Central and Regional authorities correct! It seems, to me, that the EU 'authority' is getting too strong (towards authoritarian Federalism) - and needs to have its policy making power reduced somewhat, perhaps significantly.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I think the EU will do fine without the UK. We really do appear to have an over inflated level of self-importance don't we.

So how are they going to cover the gaping hole in the contributions then?

We don’t have an overinflated sense of self importance, but we do have some realisation of what the loss of income will do and that other countries are watching the outcome with interest.

 

[Foxholer]

So how are they going to cover the gaping hole in the contributions then?
...

Well, tarrifs on £274 billion worth of imports from UK will certainly help!

 

[Old Skier]

Well, tarrifs on £274 billion worth of imports from UK will certainly help!

How much would our import tariffs from the EU mount up to.

 

[drdel]

Despite how important Brussels says a deal is needed they only managed to find the UK 8 minutes for communication to the heads of the 27 member states.

The complete lack of dialogue between the Heads of the 27 demonstrates how totally undemocratic and isolated from the citizens of the individual nations the organisation has become.

 

[Foxholer]

How much would our import tariffs from the EU mount up to.

Irrelevant to the point BiM was making!

But would certainly contribute to the UK Treasury's booty (via UK consumers of course!), if not, directly, to that of any UK company!

 

[Foxholer]

Despite how important Brussels says a deal is needed they only managed to find the UK 8 minutes for communication to the heads of the 27 member states.

The complete lack of dialogue between the Heads of the 27 demonstrates how totally undemocratic and isolated from the citizens of the individual nations the organisation has become.

Or how weak/irrelevant the UK's position has become!

Irrespective of atitudes of those on a Golf forum, there was certainly a significant announcement, with both negative and positive content, by the EU President!