Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Lord Tyrion]

If JLR start losing £1.2bn a year then they will close pretty sharpish and the MD will be jobless even quicker. It would be a pretty appalling MD that runs a business in that fashion. I have not read the article but I can only imagine that the MD has taken the extreme of every situation, every purchase and amplified it to make a point. Unfortunately it is why both sides have lost credibility to a large degree.

The UK govt has been consistent from day 1, no deal = no or limited payment. Raab is not saying anything new, he is simply reminding the EU that they are gamling with a cheque for €39bn, or similar.

 

[Hobbit]

But it is what many of the duped need to hear. As they need to hear it as the lack of any plan for a post-Brexit UK - or any coherent and well-founded strategy for the future of our country - becomes ever more obvious to us all.

Do you know they've been duped? Did they tell you they felt like they've been duped?

Your generalisations lack intelligence.

 

[woody69]

Excellent article in the Wetherspoons house magazine...

And, from the coverage I've seen, of the marches for a second vote, it's mostly older folk...
So, still looking like the younger folk can't be asked...

And and, when will broadcasters get it through their thick heads...
It's not the voters job to explain the whys/wherefores of anything...
That's the job of PAID politicians and bureaucrats...

What does the article say?

 

[Mudball]

Not sure what the view is like from Oban nowadays but the horizon from where I was looking out from, on the coastline, last week was full of 'windmills'...
Apparently about 50% of their 'content' is sourced from continental Europe... That's an awful lot of Euro's...
Will EU business leaders be happy to see that income potentially slipping from their grasp?

This is true, hence we need Biz leaders on both sides to speak up... unfortunately, when the JLR boss did, he was shot at..

 

[Old Skier]

And the Brexit secretary tells us that unless we get a deal we will renege on our agreement on the Exit payment

Once again you let your prejudices rule the truth.

The payment agreement was part of an AGREED outcome. No agreement = no payment so perhaps you could reconsider your, once again, none factual post.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

What does the article say?

Can I give you some fun Wetherspoons facts from an interview with the boss man there in the magazine:

The second most popular drink, by order, is...............Pepsi
The most sold drink, by volume, is..............Coffee

How times have changed. Pubs not recognising these changes will be in trouble.

 

[woody69]

Can I give you some fun Wetherspoons facts from an interview with the boss man there in the magazine:

The second most popular drink, by order, is...............Pepsi
The most sold drink, by volume, is..............Coffee

How times have changed. Pubs not recognising these changes will be in trouble.

Not really sure what that has got to do with leaving the EU

 

[Deleted member 15344]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45550025

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Nothing whatsoever. It was a frivilous post about changing times, which came from the article which was being quoted. The information did come from a staunch Brexiteer though, Mr Wetherspoons (Tim Martin), so there was a tenuous link.

This thread needs lightening up every so often.

 

[User62651]

Not sure what the view is like from Oban nowadays but the horizon from where I was looking out from, on the coastline, last week was full of 'windmills'...
Apparently about 50% of their 'content' is sourced from continental Europe... That's an awful lot of Euro's...
Will EU business leaders be happy to see that income potentially slipping from their grasp?

Not going to be happy no but they have to defend their position. You're effectively saying UK should be a special case and get the perks of single market (tariff-free, free trade) without being a member state. Cake and eat it time and great if you can achieve that but expecting/demanding EU to offer that is delusional . If they offer us what Brexiteers are saying they should then that's the EU finished as every other state that is a net contributor to the EU will think 'we want that too' - free trade but on our own terms and we dont have to contribute to EU coffers or accept EU nationals into our country. Can't see that happening, EU have to make us at least appear worse off by leaving the club or they are possibly done for. Thye'll be worse off too but they want to survive. They may not survive in time, but short term at least we'll (UK) have to take a hit of some kind from the EU for opting to leave, no matter the cost. It is you and me who bear that cost though, not the well heeled lot in Westminster and Brussels.

 

[IanM]

Cake and eat it is true...... of the EU too. They sell stuff here. Non uk EU nationals live and work here too.

ALL the TV coverage deliberately ignores this fact.

Forget voting about a deal... this is about whether you want a Federal Europe or not. Last chance.

 

[SocketRocket]

Not going to be happy no but they have to defend their position. You're effectively saying UK should be a special case and get the perks of single market (tariff-free, free trade) without being a member state. Cake and eat it time and great if you can achieve that but expecting/demanding EU to offer that is delusional . If they offer us what Brexiteers are saying they should then that's the EU finished as every other state that is a net contributor to the EU will think 'we want that too' - free trade but on our own terms and we dont have to contribute to EU coffers or accept EU nationals into our country. Can't see that happening, EU have to make us at least appear worse off by leaving the club or they are possibly done for. Thye'll be worse off too but they want to survive. They may not survive in time, but short term at least we'll (UK) have to take a hit of some kind from the EU for opting to leave, no matter the cost. It is you and me who bear that cost though, not the well heeled lot in Westminster and Brussels.

You mean like Canada and many other countries have. Are they having their cake and eat it, cherry picking, not paying in, accepting free movement, or is this a special case just for the UK.

 

[Hobbit]

There are 34 (non-EU) countries with a free trade agreement with the EU. However, to be fair, a number of those shouldn't really be counted, e.g. San Marino and the Isle of Man. But there are also a significant number of countries who are in the middle of negotiations for a free trade agreement.

So why can't the UK have a free trade agreement?

Sounds simple doesn't it. But the devil is in the detail. Those FTA's rarely include every product. Equally, the EU insist on those products conforming to EU regs, just as the USA insists on any product imported into the USA conforming to their regs.

So why can't the UK have a free trade agreement?

What benefit do the EU citizens get from a FTA? Prices of those products have dropped by, on average, 7%. But its also a 2-way street. EU products into those countries become tariff free.

 

[woody69]

You mean like Canada and many other countries have. Are they having their cake and eat it, cherry picking, not paying in, accepting free movement, or is this a special case just for the UK.

You mean the FTA that took 7 years to negotiate?

 

[drdel]

And so today the Eurosceptic Desperation and Dissembling continues - as it seems that Bernard Jenkin backbench MP knows more about running a major automotive manufacturing company than the boss of a major automotive manufacturing company - when today he tells those wanting to hear that the boss of JLR is 'making it up' over the his statement that his company could lose £1.2bn a year as a result of Brexit. Either he thinks he knows more about running JLR than the boss of JLR - or he is calling him a liar.

'Making it up'? You couldn't make it up - unless you were a desperate eurosceptic - desperate to keep from those they have duped (and duped they have been - they are not stupid. Note - not all Leave voters are of 'the duped' - sadly - IMO - many knew what they were voting for) into their belief of a brave new world for the UK of the truth of the massive risk and cost to the UK associated with Brexit. And so it will continue.

And the Brexit secretary tells us that unless we get a deal we will renege on our agreement on the Exit payment - now isn't that going to paint us in bright glowing trustworthy colours for any considering a deal with us and in getting our WTO schedule agreed across the board.

But it is what many of the duped need to hear. As they need to hear it as the lack of any plan for a post-Brexit UK - or any coherent and well-founded strategy for the future of our country - becomes ever more obvious to us all.

I wonder if you have considered that, some people might even have considered that the EU is on a future trajectory that would, were the UK to remain, cause the UK massive costs and political risks. The EU has major budget issues and many member nations are in dire straights and cannot afford higher contribution - who do you think would be on the hook with France and Germany. Italy, one of the biggest has very heavy debt (like most southern members) and could easily reach 'junk' status. Juncker's plan of higher levels of integration are well publicised and the UK being outside of the Euro would come under considerable pressure. In the planned integrated Defence Force of the EU who do you think would pick up the major responsibilities: the UK obviously.

Its time, I'd suggest, to be less myopic. IMO its not just a question of the UK leaving the EU for a "brave new world" and because of what has happened in the past: a more important reason for leaving is the very dangerous route the EU is taking on the international stage with a dependence on Russian energy, an inadequate defence strategy and unsustainable levels of debt/low productivity in the members states.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So what do people think about Land Rovers actions today ? Scaremongering or real worries

 

[Hobbit]

Jaguar Landrover announce that production staff will be on a 3 day week from Oct to March. That's on top of the announcement made in Feb that 2,000 staff would not have their fixed term contract renewed in Oct. The piece in the media also included the fact that JLR had followed a flawed policy in terms of the development of diesel cars instead of elec/hybrids. Apparently, that's the government's fault too... but the other manufacturer's appear to be making the transition into alternative fuels ok.

I am, perhaps unfairly, cynical of TATA's Indian owners motives. Having seen what they did to the steel plant on Teesside, mothballing the blast furnace. Taking £640 million in EU payments for reducing their carbon footprint because of its mothballing. Taking 100's of millions in EU grants to build a new plant in Holland, and selling off the UK plant in circumstances that are still seeing the buyer, SSI, suing TATA.

 

[MegaSteve]

What does the article say?

LT has already covered it... See Brexit as an opportunity, be prepared to adapt...
Also, a good letter from Stephen Kinnock in the Times...
Suggesting an inner and outer circle for the EU would be a good way forward...

 

[MegaSteve]

So what do people think about Land Rovers actions today ? Scaremongering or real worries

Covering their arses...
Motor industry 'experts' have been saying hard times ahead for JLR as they have been slow to respond to changes in the market...
Especially with regard to developing hybrid technology...
And, wanting to lay the blame for their ineptitude elsewhere...

 

[harpo_72]

Covering their arses...
Motor industry 'experts' have been saying hard times ahead for JLR as they have been slow to respond to changes in the market...
Especially with regard to developing hybrid technology...
And, wanting to lay the blame for their ineptitude elsewhere...

I would agree some of the strategies have been poor, or shall we say slow coming to the table. But when the products arrive they will be unrecogniseable from std ICE products.
If you ever get the chance to drive an I pace , take it.
Professional Driver Ralf’s key point relates to the feeding of the plants with components. Aston, Bentley and Rolls will be affected to, but they don’t build at rate like JLR. Thus their supply chain could absorb the phaffing at the border.
The solution is simple for JLR, move mass production away from the UK and only build low volume premium lines in the UK. Make the UK plants fight for the business, take on the plant that will drop the union and has the best quality metric. That means 1 plant out of 3 survive.....
Who is the the loser ... probably the UK public.
Business in the end wins whatever the deal, it would be wise to have a non tariff relationship with Europe, so the British public can have jobs.