Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[drdel]

Corbyn (is this the guy that MI5 fears they can't trust with security info. and the same person who is under investigation by the Standards committee for undeclared expenses, whose festival for the young lost money and who is friends with suspect groups ?) might need to be careful what he wishes for, as despite the poor Tory performance, the Polls don't give Labour a lead.

 

[woody69]

So all his speeches were he stated that we "Must follow the democratic wishes of the majority " on Brexit was a lie then.

He's happy for a few to dictate to the wishes of the many. This is one kind of dictatorship that you would or wouldn't be happy with.

Why is it a lie? If another vote was to happen (and I don't think it will), surely giving the people another say now we are in a better position to understand the potential ramifications (both negative and positive) is the very definition of democracy.

We get to vote every 5 years or so on a new Government. Why shouldn't there be another chance to vote on something as important as this?

 

[drdel]

Why is it a lie? If another vote was to happen (and I don't think it will), surely giving the people another say now we are in a better position to understand the potential ramifications (both negative and positive) is the very definition of democracy.

We get to vote every 5 years or so on a new Government. Why shouldn't there be another chance to vote on something as important as this?

And what would be your question, now we have exposed several options...

a. Norwegian
b. Canadian
c. Canadian plus
d. Chequers
5. Leave for WTO
6. Request we rejoin.
7. Delay leaving 5yrs, 10 or 15?

 

[Tashyboy]

Why is it a lie? If another vote was to happen (and I don't think it will), surely giving the people another say now we are in a better position to understand the potential ramifications (both negative and positive) is the very definition of democracy.

We get to vote every 5 years or so on a new Government. Why shouldn't there be another chance to vote on something as important as this?[/QUOTE
now we are in a better position to understand the potential ramifications,
With POTENTIAL being the key word. What exactly are they coz all i see is a bottomless pit of wasted money being poured into the EU. Or an uncertain future out of it.

 

[Hobbit]

Why is it a lie? If another vote was to happen (and I don't think it will), surely giving the people another say now we are in a better position to understand the potential ramifications (both negative and positive) is the very definition of democracy.

We get to vote every 5 years or so on a new Government. Why shouldn't there be another chance to vote on something as important as this?

Isn't the enactment of a vote the true definition of democracy. There was a vote, and the majority voted a particular way - which I disagree with by the way. When the result of that vote has been enacted, then we will have seen the full process of democracy. Want a vote on rejoining in x years, yes please.

As for Corbyn's democracy for the people. What utter rubbish! He's begging for votes, and the democracy is only for Labour Party members. He isn't respecting all those non-about Party members who won't get a say. Then there's the "let's have an election, and Labour will then negotiate Leave." Sorry Jeremy, but you tell me what the terms the Labour Party will be negotiating on and then I'll decide if I was to vote Labour.

If there was to be another 'people's vote' then there's 2 things I'd like to see on it. Stay or leave being one, and if its leave, leave within 2 years whatever the outcome of a negotiation. This continued uncertainty isn't doing businesses any good whatsoever.

 

[Foxholer]

So all his speeches were he stated that we "Must follow the democratic wishes of the majority " on Brexit was a lie then.
...

Well, he'd have a dilemna if his 'grass roots' party members voted for another referendum! As that (Labour Party grass roots members) is the 'most democratic' group of all the parties, I believe he'd have to adjust/clarify, his above statement, possibly claiming, perhaps even legitimately, that 'the democratic wishes of the majority - of his party' had actually changed!

I see that as a 'reasonable but fraught with danger' approach. For that same reason, I'd see any 'grass roots' vote on the subject being strongly resisted!

He's happy for a few to dictate to the wishes of the many. This is one kind of dictatorship that you would or wouldn't be happy with.

Well, being a 'Leader' is likely to involve making decisions that some don't agree with! No different to the way May has imposed the Chequers plan. If you are going to describe Corbyn as a dictator, then May is surely an even greater one! That's simply highlights the way our 'democracy' works!

 

[Tashyboy]

The differance i see foxy is that May is trying to push through a plan ( which isnt going to please everyone) on the basis the people voted out. Corbyn could try and push through a plan on the basis of the labour members wishes and not the wishes if the general public. Any chequers plan was going to be imposed. Time and barriers from the UK and the EU have forced that to happen.

 

[Foxholer]

The differance i see foxy is that May is trying to push through a plan ( which isnt going to please everyone) on the basis the people voted out. Corbyn could try and push through a plan on the basis of the labour members wishes and not the wishes if the general public. Any chequers plan was going to be imposed. Time and barriers from the UK and the EU have forced that to happen.

So which do you see a 'more dictatorial'?

Btw. I'm not taking sides. Simply challenging the idea that Corbyn is being dictatorial while May is not!

 

[Hobbit]

The differance i see foxy is that May is trying to push through a plan ( which isnt going to please everyone) on the basis the people voted out. Corbyn could try and push through a plan on the basis of the labour members wishes and not the wishes if the general public. Any chequers plan was going to be imposed. Time and barriers from the UK and the EU have forced that to happen.

If the plan goes to a 'people's vote,' as has been suggested, there'll be 16 million NO(Remain) voters who'll vote against it. Then there's the soft Leavers who'll vote against it. I don't think it will matter what plan is devised, if its put to the people it will not be passed. And when it isn't passed the result will be hijacked by Remain and turned into a stay in the EU result.

Strange how there doesn't seem to be many Leavers shouting for a people's vote. A people's vote is just a cynical ploy to thwart Brexit.

 

[User62651]

What Corbyn/Labour say is largely by the by because they're not in power. I am not a Labour supporter incidentally, have voted all ways in the past. If (huge if) there's a general election before next March then they may become important but for now no. Corbyn historically was not fussed for EU but he and Milliband before him didn't have Brexit as a Labour manifesto issue, it was purely a Tory concern because they were losing votes to UKIP. Need to focus on Govt re Brexit, they're the ones who called it.
Whole EU ref came about through the UK parliamentary process - Cameron had it in Tory manifesto, he won the 2015 election, enacted a referendum, didn't go his way, he left etc etc. With hindsight it should have been set out in far more detail but Cameron was likely bit cocky of it going his way, he didn't prepare, called it in times of deep austerity which was daft, gambled and lost. Anti establishment vote was suggested and given the 2017 election result that seemed to be true - Labour voters gave Cameron a kicking in 2016 in the EU ref and again gave May one a year later - effectively voted for Breixt then a year later voted against it as May called that GE specifically to push through Brexit her way. She only worsened her Brexit position. Has nothing at all to do with her being a remain voter in the past.
Point is Brexit cant be bulldozed through ad hoc and we leave and stomp our feet at EU just because Leavers are fed up with the time it's taking and perceived snubs foir May from EU member state leaders. It needs to continue to go through parliamentary process to completion/rejection whatever, however long that takes. Has always been thus in UK politics. Brexit has progressed through Commons and Lords to date, too slowly for some, but being scrutinised all the way, that's a good thing, and that's where it should stay imo, we dont need a peoples vote. We get to vote for MPs to represent us in the areas we live in and they should take the matter forward, that's their job, not ours. If May doesn't get her version of Brexit through Commons then so be it, that's the UK democratic process too, MPs will likely vote the way their constituents voted in ref so are representing them. An MP form the Shetlands has no responsibility to vote the same way as an MP from Devon because of an overall UK referendum result, they represent their own areas views.
Public are way too simplistic and knee-jerk about what needs to be done.
A people's vote will just involve more extreme rhetoric, hatred, lies and division, not needed. Let the politicians do what they are supposed to do. Try and push Brexit through in the best way they can, if in time they haven't got the numbers or means to do that then so be it, but it has to stay with our parliamentary system. Giving PM executive decision making powers is wrong imo, if a PM want more power they need to do better in general elections and get a decent majority who believe in that PM, not the case now. Next election public can vote out those they blame over Brexit if it fails and start over including a new motion to leave EU, that's where it'll end up. Will rumble on and on.
Anti Labour people very quick to try and blame Corbyn for everything, right wing rags are trying their hardest to bring him down too, I think he has kept his cool and fended them off in a dignified way, actually a good number of their own Tory MPs are stalling a hard Brexit and in their minds for good reason.
No thanks to 2nd people's vote....will do no-one any good.

 

[MegaSteve]

Seeing as the vast majority of the 'political classes' were/are in favour of remaining...
It'll be an absolute major surprise if any kind of exit actually comes to be...
And, really has been the case since day one...

 

[bobmac]

Just say if the roles were reversed and the referendum result was a narrow majority to remain in Europe, what do you think the remainers would say to the leavers if they wanted another vote.

 

[Fade and Die]

But we already had a “People’s Vote” in 2016!

Out of the 382 areas voting, 263 voted to leave and only 119 voted to remain

Can any of the Remainer contributors to this thread explain how you can try to overturn the result and say you believe in democracy?

 

[Foxholer]

...A people's vote is just a cynical ploy to thwart Brexit.

Totally agree!

 

[bluewolf]

Just say if the roles were reversed and the referendum result was a narrow majority to remain in Europe, what do you think the remainers would say to the leavers if they wanted another vote.

I'd say "knock yourself out", but it's not me you'd need to persuade is it?

It's not like some have ever stopped moaning about being in the EU is it? Some Leavers whinge incessantly. Some Remainers whinge incessantly. Some people just like whinging. As evidenced by the non stop bleating on this very thread!!! 😇

 

[drdel]

So which do you see a 'more dictatorial'?

Btw. I'm not taking sides. Simply challenging the idea that Corbyn is being dictatorial while May is not!

Surely it is possible to say any 'executive' decision by a prime minister is dictatorial.

 

[Tashyboy]

But we already had a “People’s Vote” in 2016!

Out of the 382 areas voting, 263 voted to leave and only 119 voted to remain

Can any of the Remainer contributors to this thread explain how you can try to overturn the result and say you believe in democracy?

Never seen that before and i suppose a remainer would not like to be reminder of that. Well posted.
View attachment 25566

 

[Tashyboy]

What Corbyn/Labour say is largely by the by because they're not in power. I am not a Labour supporter incidentally, have voted all ways in the past. If (huge if) there's a general election before next March then they may become important but for now no. Corbyn historically was not fussed for EU but he and Milliband before him didn't have Brexit as a Labour manifesto issue, it was purely a Tory concern because they were losing votes to UKIP. Need to focus on Govt re Brexit, they're the ones who called it.
Whole EU ref came about through the UK parliamentary process - Cameron had it in Tory manifesto, he won the 2015 election, enacted a referendum, didn't go his way, he left etc etc. With hindsight it should have been set out in far more detail but Cameron was likely bit cocky of it going his way, he didn't prepare, called it in times of deep austerity which was daft, gambled and lost. Anti establishment vote was suggested and given the 2017 election result that seemed to be true - Labour voters gave Cameron a kicking in 2016 in the EU ref and again gave May one a year later - effectively voted for Breixt then a year later voted against it as May called that GE specifically to push through Brexit her way. She only worsened her Brexit position. Has nothing at all to do with her being a remain voter in the past.
Point is Brexit cant be bulldozed through ad hoc and we leave and stomp our feet at EU just because Leavers are fed up with the time it's taking and perceived snubs foir May from EU member state leaders. It needs to continue to go through parliamentary process to completion/rejection whatever, however long that takes. Has always been thus in UK politics. Brexit has progressed through Commons and Lords to date, too slowly for some, but being scrutinised all the way, that's a good thing, and that's where it should stay imo, we dont need a peoples vote. We get to vote for MPs to represent us in the areas we live in and they should take the matter forward, that's their job, not ours. If May doesn't get her version of Brexit through Commons then so be it, that's the UK democratic process too, MPs will likely vote the way their constituents voted in ref so are representing them. An MP form the Shetlands has no responsibility to vote the same way as an MP from Devon because of an overall UK referendum result, they represent their own areas views.
Public are way too simplistic and knee-jerk about what needs to be done.
A people's vote will just involve more extreme rhetoric, hatred, lies and division, not needed. Let the politicians do what they are supposed to do. Try and push Brexit through in the best way they can, if in time they haven't got the numbers or means to do that then so be it, but it has to stay with our parliamentary system. Giving PM executive decision making powers is wrong imo, if a PM want more power they need to do better in general elections and get a decent majority who believe in that PM, not the case now. Next election public can vote out those they blame over Brexit if it fails and start over including a new motion to leave EU, that's where it'll end up. Will rumble on and on.
Anti Labour people very quick to try and blame Corbyn for everything, right wing rags are trying their hardest to bring him down too, I think he has kept his cool and fended them off in a dignified way, actually a good number of their own Tory MPs are stalling a hard Brexit and in their minds for good reason.
No thanks to 2nd people's vote....will do no-one any good.

Good post maxy.

 

[Foxholer]

Surely it is possible to say any 'executive' decision by a prime minister is dictatorial.

Precisely!

There's no difference in the way they act, yet it's only Corbyn who is accused of being 'dictatorial'!

 

[Tashyboy]

Precisely!

There's no difference in the way they act, yet it's only Corbyn who is accused of being 'dictatorial'!

On a positive note for those that think he is incompetent. Sky have done a survey asking how he would cope in Brexit negotiations. 71% said he would be er incompetent. An incompetent dictator. I couldnt of worded it better.