BLM protests/ Riots.

[clubchamp98]

I don’t think it’s correct to judge them against their times, lives were worthless, the gap between have and have nots were unbelievable by any standard, poor people had no say in their lives etc.

Genuine question, if it was acceptable for men to sleep with 12 year old kids “in their time” would we have the same attitude?

Their times had very little of social conscience and what was right or wrong, just because they did it, doesn’t mean it was ok.

I agree we can’t change it, but we can’t condone some that behaviour and turn a blind eye.

If we are going to remember the past, learn and move forward as a society then we have to be honest about it.

Nobody has the answer.
As the main ports in the land are built on money from The slave trade.
The make up of my city would change a lot if we just eradicate all mention of it.
We have tinkered around the edges of this debate for to long .
But one wrong word and your branded a racist this needs to stop if we are going to debate a solution.
People are very scared to voice an opinion for this reason .
This imho is why it hasn’t been on any agenda to sort a solution.
But there needs to be one and not just put off again.

 

[rudebhoy]

I moved down to Shropshire for work in the mid 80s, the first week, we were taken to a pub called the All Labour in Vain, this was the pub sign

Everyone thought it was hilarious. Looking back, it's pretty cringeworthy.

 

[MegaSteve]

I haven't suggested it be overlooked, and I know nothing about Colston, but the statue wasnt erected because of the 20,000 deaths it must have been for positive things he did too and I'm just wondering whether things done in completely differing times merit the judgement based on today's morals ?

I agree you can't always judge historical figures using todays values... However, as I noted earlier, with better knowledge of the deeds of those whose histories are now being questioned/challenged perhaps we are in a better position to judge... Believe there is a case, in many cases, for the 'bad' deeds to brought out into the open and not remain swept under the carpet...

 

[SocketRocket]

Nobody has the answer.
As the main ports in the land are built on money from The slave trade.
The make up of my city would change a lot if we just eradicate all mention of it.
We have tinkered around the edges of this debate for to long .
But one wrong word and your branded a racist this needs to stop if we are going to debate a solution.
People are very scared to voice an opinion for this reason .
This imho is why it hasn’t been on any agenda to sort a solution.
But there needs to be one and not just put off again.

I have suggested we need an open debate on racism in the UK so we can evaluate exactly what the problem is and to do this we have to look at the facts without emotion. If we dont then this current campaign will be another short term protest that blows over until the next trigger point happens.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I have suggested we need an open debate on racism in the UK so we can evaluate exactly what the problem is and to do this we have to look at the facts without emotion. If we dont then this current campaign will be another short term protest that blows over until the next trigger point happens.

You can’t seperate people from their emotions, if you want an honest, open debate, then you have to accept some people will have very strong feelings/emotions on the subject.

It’s not down to anyone to tell someone how to feel, debate can be emotional and still respectful.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Nobody has the answer.
As the main ports in the land are built on money from The slave trade.
The make up of my city would change a lot if we just eradicate all mention of it.
We have tinkered around the edges of this debate for to long .
But one wrong word and your branded a racist this needs to stop if we are going to debate a solution.
People are very scared to voice an opinion for this reason .
This imho is why it hasn’t been on any agenda to sort a solution.
But there needs to be one and not just put off again.

The ports were not solely built on the Slave trade, yes, some benefitted (massively in some cases) more than others, but some were already established trading ports and had nothing to do with the Slave trade.

The reason the debate has been stifled is because it would upset the establishment and it’s easier to ignore it and deny it’s needed rather than deal with it.

 

[Hacker Khan]

 

[drdel]

Its become common place to denounce the UK for its colonial past but many of the people in the old days of 'Keyna', Nigeria etc 'enjoyed' their lives on 'white' farms. Of course, like elsewhere, there were good bosses and tyrants just as there was in the Mills up't North and on the country estates

Many of the citizens of ex-colonial nations aren't doing too well with fraud and corruption widespread. We have to be careful saying we should aplogise for our past; much of what was done may have been with the best intentions of that time

Do not get the idea that I am saying the BLM movement are wrong or not deserving of support but we should not assume that Britain's abroad were all tyrants who did not care. Salvery was wrong and abhorrent but for some their lives were better than they might have been.

Modern day slavery by families bringing young people into their homes as cleaners etc and many a Eastern European is 'traded in today's world

We must not be blinkered in our views and focus - exploitation of any human must be called out for the inhumanity that it is.

 

[clubchamp98]

The ports were not solely built on the Slave trade, yes, some benefitted (massively in some cases) more than others, but some were already established trading ports and had nothing to do with the Slave trade.

The reason the debate has been stifled is because it would upset the establishment and it’s easier to ignore it and deny it’s needed rather than deal with it.

I think your right about the establishment but imo the big problem now will be social media.
Look what’s happening to JK Rowling because she dared to give her opinion.
Death threats , that’s a major problem and it’s a reason a lot of people won’t get involved.

 

[huds1475]

However a Statue should be a beacon of excellence. A rare honour bestowed upon the best of us, so that when we walk past we can be influenced by the better aspects of our own species.

As unlikely as it seems, some folk at least seem to agree with you

 

[PhilTheFragger]

 

[ColchesterFC]

View attachment 31151

All monuments matter.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And meanwhile in the good ol' USofA - signs are that public celebrations of the confederacy are being looked at very carefully - with the NASCAR to ban the Confederate flag; and the statue of Jefferson Davis - the 1st President of the Confederacy being toppled from it's place in Richmond (the original capital of the Confederacy).

Why are these most public celebrations of the Confederacy being looked at or being removed? Well - of course - those that supported the Confederacy were in effect guilty of treason against the United States of America - and their cause? They wished to retain slavery. Not surprisingly, perhaps, that given the prevalence of the confederate flag at Trump rallies and being waved by his supporters at anti-BLM protests - the good ol' PotUS is against such moves. As Mattis said - Trump is the first PotUS who actively works to divide the country rather than unite it.

So if many in the the USA are looking at removing or banning celebrations of the confederate past - then it is not inappropriate for us all - in the UK - to look at public celebrations of our 'slave-trade' past just as critically.

 

[Old Skier]

And meanwhile in the good ol' USofA - signs are that public celebrations of the confederacy are being looked at very carefully - with the NFL to ban the Confederate flag and the statue of the 1st President of the Confederacy being removed from it's place in Richmond (the original capital of the Confederacy).

Why are these most public celebrations of the Confederacy being looked at or being removed? Well - of course - those that supported the Confederacy were in effect guilty of treason against the United States of America - and their cause? They wished to retain slavery. Not surprisingly, perhaps, that given the prevalence of the confederate flag at Trump rallies - the good ol' PotUS is against such moves.

So if many in the the USA is looking at removing or banning celebrations of the confederate past - then it is not inappropriate for us all - in the UK - to look at pub;ic celebrations of our 'slave-trade' past just as critically.

Did they do it because they wanted to or because they had to because they were worried about the consequence if they didn't.

See many of the younger generation wearing the prints of the flag, Mo, Che and Castro on the clothing, many of the same generation are now on the march. They best watch what they wear in the future.

 

[Hobbit]

And meanwhile in the good ol' USofA - signs are that public celebrations of the confederacy are being looked at very carefully - with the NASCAR to ban the Confederate flag and the statue of Jefferson Davis - the 1st President of the Confederacy being toppled from it's place in Richmond (the original capital of the Confederacy).

Why are these most public celebrations of the Confederacy being looked at or being removed? Well - of course - those that supported the Confederacy were in effect guilty of treason against the United States of America - and their cause? They wished to retain slavery. Not surprisingly, perhaps, that given the prevalence of the confederate flag at Trump rallies and being waved by his supporters at anti-BLM protests - the good ol' PotUS is against such moves. As Mattis said - Trump is the first PotUS who actively works to divide the country rather than unite it.

So if many in the the USA are looking at removing or banning celebrations of the confederate past - then it is not inappropriate for us all - in the UK - to look at public celebrations of our 'slave-trade' past just as critically.

When has the UK celebrated its slave trade past?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

When has the UK celebrated its slave trade past?

Those that toppled the statue of Colston would argue that when it was erected that statue was a celebration of the fruits of slavery...why I put 'slave-trade' and not 'slavery'

The comparison with celebrations of the confederacy is simply one of self-examination of what was deemed acceptable in past times but which might not be so appropriate today. And if the States can look at something as core to US history as the Civil War, then sure as heck we can look at the Slave Trade

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Those that toppled the statue of Colston would argue that when it was erected that statue was a celebration of the fruits of slavery...why I put 'slave-trade' and not 'slavery'

I think that statue should have been removed legally but it was erected in the first place due to philanthropy, not to celebrate his economic success. You are stretching that point a tad far imo.

 

[Hobbit]

Those that toppled the statue of Colston would argue that when it was erected that statue was a celebration of the fruits of slavery...why I put 'slave-trade' and not 'slavery'

And when was it erected? Last week, last month, last year, 10 years ago..................? And when those statues were erected how many turned up to those celebrations, and how many of those knew where the money came from? Were they celebrating the person's involvement in slavery, really?

I'd like to see every statue erected to honour slavers taken down. But I wonder when the last celebration, as you call it, of slavery took place.

Seriously, your link is very tenuous. The guy you refer to did a lot of good with the money he made. That in no way excuses his businesses but I'd argue that the people celebrating the raising of the statue were doing so because of what he gave to the city, not his involvement in slavery.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Only if it's divied up.

Paul DJ is the biggest divvy going, so would he get more?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

https://www.facebook.com/569022853258776/posts/1507921309368921

Something a bit different.