BLM protests/ Riots.

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pauldj42

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I certainly am. Was talking about this very thing with the wife last night. Every one of us holds some sort of prejudice.

The difference (to me), is that some people question their own prejudices and try to overcome them (and ensure that they’re not passed down to the next generation), and some don’t.
I wonder if age also plays a part in it?

My lad was born in London and we were still living there when he started Nursery then School, when he was 6 we moved to Berkshire and he went to a local village school, 2 days after being there he asked us why it was only white kids at the school, we hadn’t noticed, but to him it was strange.

At the opposite end my mam, who was a staunch Catholic and always brought us up to be honest and fair made a couple of awful embarrassing racist statements in her later years.

Maybe the time period we are born and how our social circles are formed affect our opinions.
 

chrisd

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Is it right to expunge something from history when attitudes change even if it was considered perfectly normal at the time ?
 

pauldj42

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Is it right to expunge something from history when attitudes change even if it was considered perfectly normal at the time ?
It needs to be discussed, properly and openly, only then can decisions be made.

I read quite a bit a few years ago about Christopher Columbus after discussing it with a Yank friend, in school I learnt about this great Spanish Explorer, the truth about him(some of it his own words) is quite shocking. You wouldn’t change peoples opinions on him in one chat or in one hour, the discussions need time.
 

DRW

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I certainly am. Was talking about this very thing with the wife last night. Every one of us holds some sort of prejudice.

The difference (to me), is that some people question their own prejudices and try to overcome them (and ensure that they’re not passed down to the next generation), and some don’t.
Absolutely this (y), society has changed over the last 40-100 years and we need to change to reflect and help it along. From races mixing, to women working. to large population growth, to childrens roles, sexual relationships, to working practises, technology, religion, everything really.

It must have been a really difficult period for people say 70 plus year olds, the change in society and outlooks in the last 40 years has been massive.

A problem with humans, is we like to create 'gangs or groups or cliques' , which then means people are excluded for X reasons, that X is what is involving and for the better, as colour or race or sex(edited) shouldn't come into the equation.

We all need to adapt and improve for sure and treat everyone the same.
 

bluewolf

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Is it right to expunge something from history when attitudes change even if it was considered perfectly normal at the time ?
No, it's not right to expunge it. But it's also not right to commemorate it. A statue of an individual is a commemoration or celebration of a life. If that life is later proven to be not worth the commemoration, but still of historical interest, then the statue should be removed and put somewhere that it can be discussed. Maybe a museum.
 

bluewolf

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I wonder if age also plays a part in it?

My lad was born in London and we were still living there when he started Nursery then School, when he was 6 we moved to Berkshire and he went to a local village school, 2 days after being there he asked us why it was only white kids at the school, we hadn’t noticed, but to him it was strange.

At the opposite end my mam, who was a staunch Catholic and always brought us up to be honest and fair made a couple of awful embarrassing racist statements in her later years.

Maybe the time period we are born and how our social circles are formed affect our opinions.
I think that age and background are vitally important. I'm a child of the 70's. From a Northern Pit/Mill town. There were very, very few ethnic minorities around when I was growing up. When we did encounter someone different, they were a curiosity. I'm still fighting those early prejudices now. I'm still fighting the upbringing that I had on a council estate that was 100% white.
 

bluewolf

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Oh, and for what it's worth. This is my favourite statue in the entire world. It's a Conservative MP called Sir Francis Powell. People might be surprised that a "Tory" MP is my favourite statue, but if you're from Wigan you'll know why...
Sir_Francis_Powell_Wigan_Statue.jpg
 

Wolf

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I wonder if age also plays a part in it?

My lad was born in London and we were still living there when he started Nursery then School, when he was 6 we moved to Berkshire and he went to a local village school, 2 days after being there he asked us why it was only white kids at the school, we hadn’t noticed, but to him it was strange.

At the opposite end my mam, who was a staunch Catholic and always brought us up to be honest and fair made a couple of awful embarrassing racist statements in her later years.

Maybe the time period we are born and how our social circles are formed affect our opinions.
Reminds me of my daughter, when she started nursery it was part of a primary school in Walderslade (Medway). She had a friend she played with every day but couldn't for the life of her say his name, so instead she called him her "brown" friend. She was only 4 but got given time out at school for prejudice. I was annoyed at the school for how they reacted because instead of educating her they vilified her as prejudice towards ethnicity and she had no idea what she had done wrong because it was pure childlike innocence, he was her best friend, and because she couldn't pronounce his name she used the only thing she knew to describe him.

We had to sit and talk to her about it help her understand why she couldn't call him that. It took her a while to grasp and was so upset that she thought she may have offended him because it simply hadn't occurred to her that his skin colour mattered or would be seen as a derogatory term because he was her friend and she liked playing with him.

For me racism isn't what we're born with, just like my little girl she just needed education and understanding which is something we should all be teaching.

So hopefully like you say with each new generation we will educate each other.
 

chrisd

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No, it's not right to expunge it. But it's also not right to commemorate it. A statue of an individual is a commemoration or celebration of a life. If that life is later proven to be not worth the commemoration, but still of historical interest, then the statue should be removed and put somewhere that it can be discussed. Maybe a museum.
Can it be better discussed in a museum than in the street, who decides the worthiness/ merit and, taking a balance, if a person did lots of good for his community but a couple of things that subsequently were thought to be wrong should the statue stay or go - I'm not picking on you by the way, but trying to see generally where the balance lies 👍
 

PhilTheFragger

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As an ex scout leader, sad to see the statue of Robert Baden-Powell the founder of the Scout Movement being removed from Poole Quay as a precaution as it could now be a target as some are now claiming allegations of homosexuality and apparent support of Hitler (BP Died in 1941 aged 83 in Kenya) along with criticizing his actions in the Boer War

it was facing Brownsea Island where the first Scout camp took place in 1907 and is a fitting memorial to a man who has left a huge legacy behind

Has this now gone too far?

Are we on the point of just being apologists for everything in our history?

playing devils advocate slightly, but we need an open discussion about all this
 
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PhilTheFragger

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Oh, and for what it's worth. This is my favourite statue in the entire world. It's a Conservative MP called Sir Francis Powell. People might be surprised that a "Tory" MP is my favourite statue, but if you're from Wigan you'll know why...
View attachment 31136

I expect you have rubbed his toe a few times (y)
 

pauldj42

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Oh, and for what it's worth. This is my favourite statue in the entire world. It's a Conservative MP called Sir Francis Powell. People might be surprised that a "Tory" MP is my favourite statue, but if you're from Wigan you'll know why...
View attachment 31136
Is it because he married a Scouse Girl, something all blokes from Wigan aspire to.:p
 

MegaSteve

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Can it be better discussed in a museum than in the street, who decides the worthiness/ merit and, taking a balance, if a person did lots of good for his community but a couple of things that subsequently were thought to be wrong should the statue stay or go - I'm not picking on you by the way, but trying to see generally where the balance lies 👍
There is strong evidence Colston could be connected to as many as 20,000 deaths... Not sure how that can be overlooked...
 

pauldj42

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We must remember the society at the time when we discuss these statues.

There was a massive divide in Society, but that doesn’t make it right.

Whoever is discussed should be discussed on fact and not hearsay, Baden-Powell for example was invited to meet Hitler via the Leader of the Hitler Youth, but there is no evidence that a meeting ever took place.

We should also not kid ourselves that the behaviour of some was overlooked if they had position and money, which still carries on in some degree today.
 

Lord Tyrion

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Oh, and for what it's worth. This is my favourite statue in the entire world. It's a Conservative MP called Sir Francis Powell. People might be surprised that a "Tory" MP is my favourite statue, but if you're from Wigan you'll know why...
View attachment 31136
If he had anything to do with Hollands Pies then I would fully understand why a statue was erected :LOL:
 

Wolf

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The number of petitions to remove or rename monuments are growing but there is a new one that for me is unbelievably ridiculous and that's the one that's now been started to rename "The white cliffs of Dover".. I'm sorry but that is one thing that is so far from being racially motivated that the idea of renaming it incase it offends is ridiculous. They're such named because the cliff faces are made of white chalk.
 

murphthemog

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The number of petitions to remove or rename monuments are growing but there is a new one that for me is unbelievably ridiculous and that's the one that's now been started to rename "The white cliffs of Dover".. I'm sorry but that is one thing that is so far from being racially motivated that the idea of renaming it incase it offends is ridiculous. They're such named because the cliff faces are made of white chalk.
They could rename the cliffs after Nelson Mandela. The Nelson Mandela cliffs of Dover has such a nice ring to it.
 

murphthemog

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As an ex scout leader, sad to see the statue of Robert Baden-Powell the founder of the Scout Movement being removed from Poole Quay as a precaution as it could now be a target as some are now claiming allegations of homosexuality and apparent support of Hitler (BP Died in 1941 aged 83 in Kenya) along with criticizing his actions in the Boer War

it was facing Brownsea Island where the first Scout camp took place in 1907 and is a fitting memorial to a man who has left a huge legacy behind

Has this now gone too far?

Are we on the point of just being apologists for everything in our history?

playing devils advocate slightly, but we need an open discussion about all this
Why is his statue not on Brownsea Island? It would make more sense than Poole harbour.
 

PhilTheFragger

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it may well go there now as it should be safe there, or Gilwell Park

Not that many people go there, so the Quay, where it would get seen by more was considered the better option
 

pauldj42

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The number of petitions to remove or rename monuments are growing but there is a new one that for me is unbelievably ridiculous and that's the one that's now been started to rename "The white cliffs of Dover".. I'm sorry but that is one thing that is so far from being racially motivated that the idea of renaming it incase it offends is ridiculous. They're such named because the cliff faces are made of white chalk.
Some of the petitions are click-bait imo, even as mentioned in the random irritations about the racist complaint over the track’n’trace trial on the Isle of Wight, when you look in to it, it’s one MP asking questions, making a statement and it should simply be scrolled past and ignored.
 
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