Ball Flight Laws - who knows?

[Maninblack4612]

A current thread reminded me of this. How many people understand what is happening to the club at impact when they hit a bad shot? I've seen people hit a straight pull & say "I had the face closed". But closed to what? The swingpath, the target line? You have to know which. If you hit consistent pulls & weaken your grip you'd probably be surprised to see a slice developing because the problem wasn't in the grip but in the swingpath. This diagram, or one of the many others on the interweb, explains it nicely.
https://www.golftec.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Ball_Flight_Chart.jpg

I'm a great believer in self diagnosis (combined with lessons). If you don't understand the mechanics you can't find the solution. When you have a lesson the pro should explain any faults & what effect they have on the flight of the ball. If they don't then I don't think they're making the most of the lesson.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Here's the chart.

 

[duncan mackie]

Honestly, for some people referencing such things will do far more harm than good.
There's definitely a time and place for it; but even then 1 diagram as approprite will do!

 

[bobmac]

I think half the problem is the terminology used.
In my day a fade would start left and finish on target
A slice would start left and finish right of target target
And don't get me started on tops and thins

 

[Maninblack4612]

Honestly, for some people referencing such things will do far more harm than good.
There's definitely a time and place for it; but even then 1 diagram as approprite will do!

I don't understand how knowing what is causing a consistent bad shot can do any harm.

 

[Maninblack4612]

I think half the problem is the terminology used.
In my day a fade would start left and finish on target
A slice would start left and finish right of target target
And don't get me started on tops and thins

In my day it was thought that the swingpath determined the line on which the ball started. This was proved incorrect by high speed photography & the laws of physics.

 

[duncan mackie]

The knowledge of what is causing a consistently bad shot doesn't come from a chart!

If a player has a good address position and is aligned correctly to his target then the required knowledge is 'why?' with regards to any issues. 'What' is simply another step in establishing the fault.

Now, for total self diagnostics and resolution the combination of quality image recording, CG2 or equivilent data sets, that chart and unlimited access to you tube video 'advice' will provide decades of fun(?) to some (as evidenced by some well published forum members) but then again I am well aware that others can easily get to cat 1, and beyond, without ever seeing that chart or getting any advice from you tube.

For anyone with consistent symptoms any analysis needs to be holistic (and I appreciate that you referenced use in association with lessons) and if, as an example, the issue is within the transition, it's only going to be a very small % of pupils that will appreciate detailed discussion of the ball flight laws to aid resolution. They are dealing with the effect side, not the cause.

 

[bobmac]

In my day it was thought that the swingpath determined the line on which the ball started. This was proved incorrect by high speed photography & the laws of physics.

I know, all the instruction said so.
'Point your body where you want the ball to start and point the clubface where you want the ball to finish.'
No wonder I kept hitting the trees in front of me.

 

[jim8flog]

I learnt a lot of my golf from the John Jacobs book Practical golf in the early 80s

He said everybody should learn the fundamentals of ball flight using a similar diagram.

It taught me a lot.

Mind you I learnt that there was a big difference between having the club face open and really having the club face open.

 

[Maninblack4612]

The knowledge of what is causing a consistently bad shot doesn't come from a chart!

If a player has a good address position and is aligned correctly to his target then the required knowledge is 'why?' with regards to any issues. 'What' is simply another step in establishing the fault.

Now, for total self diagnostics and resolution the combination of quality image recording, CG2 or equivilent data sets, that chart and unlimited access to you tube video 'advice' will provide decades of fun(?) to some (as evidenced by some well published forum members) but then again I am well aware that others can easily get to cat 1, and beyond, without ever seeing that chart or getting any advice from you tube.

For anyone with consistent symptoms any analysis needs to be holistic (and I appreciate that you referenced use in association with lessons) and if, as an example, the issue is within the transition, it's only going to be a very small % of pupils that will appreciate detailed discussion of the ball flight laws to aid resolution. They are dealing with the effect side, not the cause.

Sorry, but we'll have to disagree on this. My pro tells me what I'm doing wrong & how to fix it. When I play, or practise, the ball flight tells me what my swing is doing & whether I've slipped back into my old ways. Understanding what the clubface & swingpath are doing helps a lot with this.

Yes, there are natural sportsmen who are lucky enough to be able to get very good without instruction. I'm not one of them.

 

[bobmac]

Self diagnosis is important when things go wrong on the course.
Rather than it being ''just one of those days'' you can work out what's wrong and fix it.
How you hit it and where you hit it are all you need to know.

 

[Foxholer]

FWIW. Loads of vids and pic mention Old and New Bll Flight Laws. 'New' Ball flight laws are really only new to those indoctrinated by the 'US dominated' teaching. The Golf Club of UK commissioned Messrs Chocran and Stobbs to analyse the golf swing back in the early 1960s! Their results were published in the 1968 book 'In Search of the Perfect Swing'! Their conclusions (ignored or not even looked at by those US indoctrinated folk) were confirmed by Trackman, Flightscope and the like. Those teaching according to the 'Old' laws had to change

However, and back on track with thread intent....Some folk don't want to really know WHY results are not as they expect - merely how to adjust to improve the result next time. For them, even using the 'old' laws could well be adequate - as the difference was sufficiently small that using those old laws seemed to work pretty well for so long! For those that really DO want to know, that diagram is the 'bible'!

Btw. There are many apparently counter-intuitive things about the golf swing. I've seen a guy who started with a fade that rapidly became a slice 'cured' by getting him to 'aim right'! - on a hole with trees down both sides! He, a righty, 'subconsciously adjusted' his swing to deliver the face virtually straight and square, as opposed to aiming further asnd further left 'allowing' for' the increasing left-to-right flight that his conscious adjustment was actually causing! Had he known, and used, those Ball Flight Laws, he would have realised that what he was consciously doing was contributing to the problem, not solving it!

Oh! And if you REALLY want to delve deep into modelling the golf swing, then there's plenty of scope in Dr Sacha Mackenzie's academic work!

 

[SocketRocket]

In my day it was thought that the swingpath determined the line on which the ball started. This was proved incorrect by high speed photography & the laws of physics.

The physics that determine ball flight is the 'D' plane. It requires a reasonable understanding of 3D geometry, planed surfaces, 3D vectors and normals to a surface to apply it to ball flight. A simpler way to grasp this is to take a beach ball and consider how you would need to strike it with the flat of your hand to make it spin off to the right or left or go straight.

 

[Maninblack4612]

The physics that determine ball flight is the 'D' plane. It requires a reasonable understanding of 3D geometry, planed surfaces, 3D vectors and normals to a surface to apply it to ball flight. A simpler way to grasp this is to take a beach ball and consider how you would need to strike it with the flat of your hand to make it spin off to the right or left or go straight.

This will take a bit of reading! https://www.thediygolfer.com/d-plane-golf/

 

[Maninblack4612]

The physics that determine ball flight is the 'D' plane. It requires a reasonable understanding of 3D geometry, planed surfaces, 3D vectors and normals to a surface to apply it to ball flight. A simpler way to grasp this is to take a beach ball and consider how you would need to strike it with the flat of your hand to make it spin off to the right or left or go straight.

I've read a

The knowledge of what is causing a consistently bad shot doesn't come from a chart!

If a player has a good address position and is aligned correctly to his target then the required knowledge is 'why?' with regards to any issues. 'What' is simply another step in establishing the fault.

Now, for total self diagnostics and resolution the combination of quality image recording, CG2 or equivilent data sets, that chart and unlimited access to you tube video 'advice' will provide decades of fun(?) to some (as evidenced by some well published forum members) but then again I am well aware that others can easily get to cat 1, and beyond, without ever seeing that chart or getting any advice from you tube.

For anyone with consistent symptoms any analysis needs to be holistic (and I appreciate that you referenced use in association with lessons) and if, as an example, the issue is within the transition, it's only going to be a very small % of pupils that will appreciate detailed discussion of the ball flight laws to aid resolution. They are dealing with the effect side, not the cause.

I was at the range yesterday & most of the shots I hit started straight & faded. This told me that the face was square to the target line at impact but the swingpath was slightly out to in, my usual fault. I therefore concentrated on not coming over the top & started hitting pushes. The ball flight laws told me that, now, the face & swingpath were square & slightly in to out. This is not surprising as, generally, I'm able to keep the face square to the swingpath, because I've a fairly flat swing & don't use the hands a lot. Then I strengthened my grip a little and started producing nice, gentle draws right on target.

without the ball flight laws I would have been at a loss as to what corrective action to take. Works for me!

 

[anotherdouble]

I've read a


I was at the range yesterday & most of the shots I hit started straight & faded. This told me that the face was square to the target line at impact but the swingpath was slightly out to in, my usual fault. I therefore concentrated on not coming over the top & started hitting pushes. The ball flight laws told me that, now, the face & swingpath were square & slightly in to out. This is not surprising as, generally, I'm able to keep the face square to the swingpath, because I've a fairly flat swing & don't use the hands a lot. Then I strengthened my grip a little and started producing nice, gentle draws right on target.

without the ball flight laws I would have been at a loss as to what corrective action to take. Works for me!

As long as the strike was out of the middle

 

[Imurg]

Knowing what is going wrong and being able to make the necessary adjustments are very different things.
The ball flight may tell you that your face was square but open to path ( or whatever) but I would question the ability of the vast majority of average golfers to be able to adjust their strike conditions by, let's face it, a matter of millimetres to get the correct angles.
A club moves an awfully long way during the swing and while there will be certain characteristics that will be ever present, the potential for a multitude of minutely differing movements that can result in a number of differing outcomes is extremely high.
Take a 10 handicap player and ask him to hit 3 6 irons in a row.
I can almost guarantee that you'll see 3 different ball flights - maybe not hugely different but different nontheless.
Now pick one of the 3 and ask him to hit it again.......
I just don't think we have the required ability to make full use of the ball flight laws on our own.
Also, knowing that you've left your face open doesn't really help when you've hit a ball deep into the jungle where the elephants go to die....

 

[SocketRocket]

Knowing what is going wrong and being able to make the necessary adjustments are very different things.
The ball flight may tell you that your face was square but open to path ( or whatever) but I would question the ability of the vast majority of average golfers to be able to adjust their strike conditions by, let's face it, a matter of millimetres to get the correct angles.
A club moves an awfully long way during the swing and while there will be certain characteristics that will be ever present, the potential for a multitude of minutely differing movements that can result in a number of differing outcomes is extremely high.
Take a 10 handicap player and ask him to hit 3 6 irons in a row.
I can almost guarantee that you'll see 3 different ball flights - maybe not hugely different but different nontheless.
Now pick one of the 3 and ask him to hit it again.......
I just don't think we have the required ability to make full use of the ball flight laws on our own.
Also, knowing that you've left your face open doesn't really help when you've hit a ball deep into the jungle where the elephants go to die....

But if you want to change a ball flight that you hit on a regular basis what can you do. Lets consider the most common, a slice. Most slicers would love to even reduce it to a fade. If they are not aware what is making the ball slice they havent much chance of changing it.
They dont need the 'D' plane explaining to them but they need to understand whats going wrong and what will improve it. I find that using the analogy of striking a nail into the ball is a great way of simplifying the task. Once the brain understands the outcome required the body movements tend to take care of them selves.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Knowing what is going wrong and being able to make the necessary adjustments are very different things.
The ball flight may tell you that your face was square but open to path ( or whatever) but I would question the ability of the vast majority of average golfers to be able to adjust their strike conditions by, let's face it, a matter of millimetres to get the correct angles.
A club moves an awfully long way during the swing and while there will be certain characteristics that will be ever present, the potential for a multitude of minutely differing movements that can result in a number of differing outcomes is extremely high.
Take a 10 handicap player and ask him to hit 3 6 irons in a row.
I can almost guarantee that you'll see 3 different ball flights - maybe not hugely different but different nontheless.
Now pick one of the 3 and ask him to hit it again.......
I just don't think we have the required ability to make full use of the ball flight laws on our own.
Also, knowing that you've left your face open doesn't really help when you've hit a ball deep into the jungle where the elephants go to die....

A few of things I disagree with:

"I would question the ability of the vast majority of average golfers to be able to adjust their strike conditions by, let's face it, a matter of millimetres"

Anyone with a reasonably repeatable swing (& a consistent fault) can do it. Yes, the change is subtle and it's easy to go too far the other way but it can be done. I have to remind myself constantly not to come over the top, a fault indicated by the type of ball flight I get from a bad shot"

I can almost guarantee that you'll see 3 different ball flights - maybe not hugely different but different nontheless.

Well, yes. But if they're all shots which start on target & fade it's a pretty good indication that there's a common fault. It's more difficult if the shots are all over the place.

I just don't think we have the required ability to make full use of the ball flight laws on our own.

I did say that it should be done in conjunction with lessons, but once the lessons have taught you how to correct the fault there's a lot you can do on your own.

Also, knowing that you've left your face open doesn't really help when you've hit a ball deep into the jungle where the elephants go to die...

This is just daft. It might help you not to do it again if you understand what caused it.

 

[Imurg]

It might help you it do it again if you understand what's happening AND you're capable of making the necessary adjustments.
I think you over-estimate the repetitive element of most average player's swings.