Back pin = front tee / front pin = back tee: Handicapping requirement for consistent hole length?

[mjf]

Hi,

At our course, the pins and tees are generally setup such that:
- if there is a back pin the tee will be at the front of the tee box
- middle pin = middle tee position
- front pin = back tee position

The idea being that the overall length of the hole will be relatively constant. I believe this practice may have originated as a result of an interpretation of the following paragraph from the 'Rules of Handicapping' document (Appendix G, section E) where it states:

The front of a teeing area, as defined in the Rules of Golf, should not be placed more than 10 yards (10 metres) in front of, or behind, the relevant permanent distance marker on each hole. Over an 18-hole round, a golf course should not be shortened (or lengthened) by more than 100 yards (100 metres) from its measured length, to ensure accurate application of the Course Rating and Slope Rating in the calculation of players’ Score Differentials

I've always thought that the tee/pin position practice I described above was kind of silly and likely a mis-interpretation of the guideline above. It results in our par 3 holes always playing roughly the same length. So our 6th hole is pretty much always 165-170 yards but, if the pins/tees moved independent of each other, it could range from 150-190 yards which would make things much more interesting.

Is anyone able to clarify whether the handicap rules section above implies front pin=back tee / back pin=front tee?

Thanks

 

[backwoodsman]

Course measurement is done from the permanent marker on the tee, to the centre of the green.
For handicap purposes, actual tee position can be up to 10yd forward or 10yd back of the marker. So actual distance from tee to centre of green could be up to 20yd different day to day.

But actual position of the hole itself is independent of this and only subject to the rules/guidelines on pin placement. So, depending on the size of your greens, you could add another + or - say, of 20yards either way. So if the measured distance were 150yds, in this example, the actual playing length could be anything from 120 to 180 yards. I think whoever is responsible at your place for pin/tee placement is misinterpretting things.

 

[Voyager EMH]

The "measured length" of the course is to the centre of the green no matter where the pin is placed on the day.
A "shortened length" of the whole course due to forward placement of tee makers would be with regard to centre of green and not pin placement.
Therefore the practice of front-tee/back-pin, back-tee/front pin does not affect any influence over the shortened length scenario.

 

[cliveb]

The front of a teeing area, as defined in the Rules of Golf, should not be placed more than 10 yards (10 metres) in front of, or behind, the relevant permanent distance marker on each hole.

As an aside, I wasn't aware that the teeing area was allowed to be behind the stones. I'm 99% certain that I've NEVER seen a teeing area behind the stones on any course I've ever played. Does it ever happen?

 

[Slab]

As an aside, I wasn't aware that the teeing area was allowed to be behind the stones. I'm 99% certain that I've NEVER seen a teeing area behind the stones on any course I've ever played. Does it ever happen?

Every single bloomin week and I hate it!

 

[Neilds]

As an aside, I wasn't aware that the teeing area was allowed to be behind the stones. I'm 99% certain that I've NEVER seen a teeing area behind the stones on any course I've ever played. Does it ever happen?

Our markers are spread across the tee boxes so quite often the tee of the day is behind the marker. Makes sense to me to spread the wear evenly across the tee box

 

[jim8flog]

Although only the middle of the green is specified I seriously doubt that having the pin in a different location will make any difference to the course rating.

 

[rulefan]

As an aside, I wasn't aware that the teeing area was allowed to be behind the stones. I'm 99% certain that I've NEVER seen a teeing area behind the stones on any course I've ever played. Does it ever happen?

Many courses used to set the 'back' tees as far back as they could , in order to claim (boast) that a) theirs's was longer than other local course and b) some hole lengths would influence the course par and make it seem like a 'championship' course.
The new course rating and new table for par allocation has partially reduced that 'attraction' but some (mine included) have realised that not leaving 10 yards behind the fixed marker can reduce the issue of churned up teeing areas.
When I have been doing the course set up for many county events, I have often found it difficult to find a decent teeing area for many par 3s in particular.

 

[Slab]

Many courses used to set the 'back' tees as far back as they could , in order to claim (boast) that a) theirs's was longer than other local course and b) some hole lengths would influence the course par and make it seem like a 'championship' course.
The new course rating and new table for par allocation has partially reduced that 'attraction' but some (mine included) have realised that not leaving 10 yards behind the fixed marker can reduce the issue of churned up teeing areas.
When I have been doing the course set up for many county events, I have often found it difficult to find a decent teeing area for many par 3s in particular.

You'd like our 17th par 3 then, 10 prepared areas for the tees. We've no clue what type of hole we'll be faced with leaving 16 green

 

[Alan Clifford]

"100 yards (100 metres)" and the word "accurate" in the same sentence.

 

[mjf]

The "measured length" of the course is to the centre of the green no matter where the pin is placed on the day.

Is there a specific rule/guideline that you can point me to that defines "measured length"? Specifically, I'd like to use it as part of my case when I push for a change in my course's practices.

 

[D-S]

As an aside, I wasn't aware that the teeing area was allowed to be behind the stones. I'm 99% certain that I've NEVER seen a teeing area behind the stones on any course I've ever played. Does it ever happen?

If you get your course remeasured they will take the new yardage from a point with at least 4 metres teeing ground behind it. So you may well find that your course will ‘shrink’ by 50 or so tyards.

 

[mjf]

Since there has been some discussion here about "yards behind the tee markers" I have a somewhat related question. The rules say that you're allowed to tee up 2 club lengths behind the tee markers... but another thing that happens occasionally at my course is that the tee markers will be placed very close to the back of the teeing area... perhaps within a yard of the rough behind it. Are there rules/guidelines that state that the tee position should always leave ~2 club length (or at least 2 yards maybe?) of space on the tee deck behind the tee markers to allow the players some space/choice in where they tee up?

Thanks again.

 

[Alan Clifford]

Since there has been some discussion here about "yards behind the tee markers" I have a somewhat related question. The rules say that you're allowed to tee up 2 club lengths behind the tee markers... but another thing that happens occasionally at my course is that the tee markers will be placed very close to the back of the teeing area... perhaps within a yard of the rough behind it. Are there rules/guidelines that state that the tee position should always leave ~2 club length (or at least 2 yards maybe?) of space on the tee deck behind the tee markers to allow the players some space/choice in where they tee up?

Thanks again.

I didn't get further than:

For guidance on where tee-markers may be located in order for acceptable scores to be submitted for handicap purposes, consult the rules or recommendations contained within the World Handicap SystemTM update publications or other guidance as provided by the handicapping body in the local jurisdiction.

The R&A

The R&A seeks to engage in and support activities for the benefit of the sport of golf from The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews.

www.randa.org

 

[Alan Clifford]

I get the impression that the only definition is the two club sized rectangle behind the tee markers. I can't find anything about this having to even be a mown area!

 

[rulefan]

The measurement certificate includes the following.​

Each hole is measured horizontally (air line) to the nearest yard using surveying instruments from the permanent marker for every tee to the centre of the green. A hole with a dogleg is measured on a straight line from each permanent marker to the centre of the fairway at the pivot point. If the pivot point is not easily discernable, a pivot point that is approximately 250 yards from the most commonly played tee for each gender is used. The measurement must continue from that point on a straight line to the centre of the green or the next pivot point, if applicable.
No Permanent marker should be less than 4 yards from the back of or less than 2 yards from the Teeing Area
Corrected

No Permanent marker should be less than 4 yards from the back of or less than 2 yards from the front of a Teeing Area

 

[Alan Clifford]

​

No Permanent marker should be less than 4 yards from the back of or less than 2 yards from the Teeing Area

I'm trying to get my head around that. A teeing area ( https://www.randa.org/rog/the-rules-of-golf/rule-6#6_2b ) is the rectangle two club lengths in depth behind the tee markers. I struggle to follow that a permanent marker should not be less than 4 yards from the back of the rectangle as well as the seeming conflicting not less than 2 yards bit.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

There was some discussion

Since there has been some discussion here about "yards behind the tee markers" I have a somewhat related question. The rules say that you're allowed to tee up 2 club lengths behind the tee markers... but another thing that happens occasionally at my course is that the tee markers will be placed very close to the back of the teeing area... perhaps within a yard of the rough behind it. Are there rules/guidelines that state that the tee position should always leave ~2 club length (or at least 2 yards maybe?) of space on the tee deck behind the tee markers to allow the players some space/choice in where they tee up?

Thanks again.

There was some discussion on this a while back…I may have raised the question myself as occasionally our tees are pushed so far back on the teeing ground that there isn’t two club lengths of prepared tee to use. Plus at times I might be able to tee up within two club lengths but at the extreme of that two club lengths I might not be able to swing a club.

I think the answer was that the club in setting a tee position does not need to provide two club lengths and room to swing a club…but a player can’t go beyond two club lengths. In practice it’s worthwhile having the space behind to protect a small area of the tee being smashed up…especially on par 3s.

 

[rulefan]

I'm trying to get my head around that. A teeing area ( https://www.randa.org/rog/the-rules-of-golf/rule-6#6_2b ) is the rectangle two club lengths in depth behind the tee markers. I struggle to follow that a permanent marker should not be less than 4 yards from the back of the rectangle as well as the seeming conflicting not less than 2 yards bit.

Sorry. I couldn't cut & paste so retyped and missed few significant words. Now corrected

No Permanent marker should be less than 4 yards from the back of or less than 2 yards from the front of a Teeing Area


I don't know where these words originated but assume from the authority (County Unions) that approve companies authorised to produce the Measurement Certificates.

 

[Alan Clifford]

Sorry. I couldn't cut & paste so retyped and nodded a few significant words. Now corrected

No Permanent marker should be less than 4 yards from the back of or less than 2 yards from the front of a Teeing Area

I still don't understand it. That means the the teeing area can't actually be anywhere near the permanent markers!