Are these distances killing the game?

[Leereed]

The first tee shot of Rory's sums it up for me miles off line and still has a clear shot.I bet at most of our home courses that tee ball would never be seen again.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

The first tee shot of Rory's sums it up for me miles off line and still has a clear shot.I bet at most of our home courses that tee ball would never be seen again.

To be fair though with the exception of the creek and the odd OOB on some holes. Augusta has always been pretty open. Even when McIlroy had his meltdown and stuck it to parts camera's had never been he usually had a lie and swing of some description. Compare that to a US Open or the rough at some of the Open venues and those would have been reloads every time

 

[r0wly86]

Though Casey and Speith threatened the course record hasn't been equalled or bettered for 22 years.

The fact that Speith got close, who isn't a big hitter anyway does tend to show in my mind that distances are not ruining the game.

Yes equipment has improved, but I would suggest that most pros now have a dedicated gym routing to build power and flexibility, coupled with the launch monitor technology they can really focus in on what they can do to improve club head speed and smash factor

 

[User62651]

Why is this coming up now, has been an issue since about 2002 when solid core balls and 460cc drivers became equipment of choice?

PGA tour average driving distance in 2003 286yds, average so far in 2018 294yds. 8 yard gain in 15 years is not overly concerning given athleticism, diet and training/conditioning of players on average has increased in that time significantly, so very minimal gains in equipment distance despite what Taylormade and others would tell you.:smirk:

I think R&A/USGA are in control of distance.

 

[patricks148]

I think a lot of the issues with distance could be nullified by making courses firmer, in particular Greens and Fairways.

Its going to get to the stage where most of the top courses are no longer long enough as fitness, The ball and other equipment help the Pro and elite am game get longer and longer.

Most links courses now don't ever get that firm easp with most courses having sprinkler systems and watering is making the greens on many courses receptive

 

[Dan2501]

One of the great things about golf is that we play the same game the Tour Pro's do so we can relate to just how good they are, changing the ball would take that away and make the game completely different to the one played on Tour. Also, all winding the ball back would do is play into the hands of the bombers, just like constantly moving tees back does. Also, scoring averages are not coming down, players are not shooting ridiculous scores week in week out so what's in the problem? If 59 was become a regular occurance every week and Tournament scores were south of -20 every week then yeah, I get it, but they're not.

Courses need to go back to proper course design to tackle the issue if there is one. Make rough penal, give players options off the tee and force them to pick and play to proper angles, utilise proper bunkering. Moving the tees back and stripping out the rough results in the sort of courses we see week in week out on the PGA Tour, courses that just encourage you to tee it up and bomb it as hard as you can as there's really no penalty for shots off-line. Holes like the drivable 10th at Riviera and the postage stamp at Royal Troon are exactly what we need, no more than a 3-wood or a flick with a wedge but you miss on the wrong side and you'll do well to make par. The obsession with distance for course designers is what's hurting the game - there should be no more 230+ yard par 3's or wide open 520 yard par 4's, design courses properly and this whole roll the ball back debate will disappear.

 

[londonlewis]

Are these distances killing the game?

Really good question.

I believe it's definitely an issue. When there's a 500+ yard par 4 that is being played with a driver and wedge, there's got to be something wrong.
And hazards that aren't even a feature for some players as they can bomb the ball 70 yards past bunkers, water etc... you've got to look at something being wrong.

You can't ask course designers to re-design a course every 5 years to lengthen holes / move hazards in play. That wouldn't work.
The US Open shows you can make courses difficult; seriously fast greens with difficult pin positions, long & penal rough that punishes balls off-line. But then the Pro's complain about it!

When it's all the bombers cluttering up a leaderboard, surely something needs to be done to change the way the game is played at the top level.
Andrew Coltaert gave up the game because he couldn't hit it far enough. But he was a great shaper of the ball. If the artistry of the game disappears because of the dominance of the big hitters, I do believe that is not good for the game.

Again, great question.

 

[the_coach]

nope wouldn't say so

long hitter did not win the masters (dj bubba rory & others were in the field)

neither week in week out do we see scores of 58 59 60 on a regular basis .... or hardly ever

 

[Slime]

nope wouldn't say so

long hitter did not win the masters (dj bubba rory & others were in the field)

neither week in week out do we see scores of 58 59 60 on a regular basis .... or hardly ever

Reed's driving average this season is just 10yds shy of Dustin Johnson's at 299.4yds and 15yds shy of Bubba ................... I'd say he's a long hitter.

 

[the_coach]

Reed's driving average this season is just 10yds shy of Dustin Johnson's at 299.4yds and 15yds shy of Bubba ................... I'd say he's a long hitter.

he's tied 52nd in driving so in the company of dj justin thomas rory bubba finau etc he's not what you would really class as a long hitter on tour - he is though a quality shot maker he'll take stuff off shots & play arm pitches so he's not just trying to blast every 9i or wedge to put too much spin on the ball ( an area of the game that rory hasn't got down he still just tries to power the wedges in too much to my mind & that hurts him) & reed can putt plus he has a strong mind when involved in the one to one arena of matches - those qualities plus a little of fred couples type luck on the 13th - plus largely hitting the tee ball in good areas saw him win

all the hype over the ball & distances ruining the game is a ways over blown winning score at 273 sits with hogan's 274 in the 50's sure the course has been altered some but it's not that the winning score is suddenly 260
reed's shot into 15 & into the wind was 260+

yardage distances has increased marginally overtime majority of golfers are far more athletes than they ever were
the clubs are under regulation so it's real difficult to produce drastic distance improvements through the bag
& the ball has improved marginally overtime - but for a while distance improvements as a whole has plateaued out some

it's far from ruining the game to my mind anyways - this masters with the 'runs' from a number of folks on the final day has probably put it up there as one of the most exciting masters there have been in terms of the golf itself

 

[USER1999]

I think it is too easy to only look at this from a few tournaments though. Too many classic courses no longer feature on tour, due to the distances the professionals hit the ball. Not all courses can afford, or want, a complete redesign.

 

[londonlewis]

he's tied 52nd in driving

Doesn't that say something in itself?
Only 10 yards behind DJ but is 52nd in average driving distance!

The top 157 guys on the PGA tour average 290 yards.

Shortest hitter this year (in averages) is Ryan Armour, who hits it a paltry 280.7 yards on average. 28 yards shorter than the longest on tour.

 

[the_coach]

Doesn't that say something in itself?
Only 10 yards behind DJ but is 52nd in average driving distance!

The top 157 guys on the PGA tour average 290 yards.

Shortest hitter this year (in averages) is Ryan Armour, who hits it a paltry 280.7 yards on average. 28 yards shorter than the longest on tour.

don't think so overmuch - when you factor in the winning scores on tour week after week - those scores are not dropping by big numbers across the board - so the distance is relative - reed won on 273 & hogan in the 50's won on 274

think there has been improvements in the game overtime in golf like there has been in all other areas of sport -but i would say improvements for the better

my own view would be that it is not ruining the game in anyways at all

 

[Reemul]

all the hype over the ball & distances ruining the game is a ways over blown winning score at 273 sits with hogan's 274 in the 50's sure the course has been altered some but it's not that the winning score is suddenly 260

I think if they played the same exact course this year to then the scores would be somewhat lower though.

 

[Slime]

he's tied 52nd in driving

I don't want to labour the point, but, of the 87 players who pegged it up he was 6th in driving distance and 13th in driving accuracy.
I'd say he's long AND accurate.
The telling stat was that, of those that played four rounds, he was 1st in putting with Rory 2nd!

 

[the_coach]

I think if they played the same exact course this year to then the scores would be somewhat lower though.

as said earlier the distances are relative to the courses played - for sure the masters course 1953/54 is different to todays 2017/18 course
but really would we expect it to be the same

the scores remain in the same ball park area they also have been - golf has not shown in anyways at all that it's goin to be a game played in scores below 60 a round

the genie is long out of the bottle & has been for some time to seek to try to put it back would be foolish to my mind
it's the nature of the human condition to seek to improve
i don't see that as a bad thing

 

[londonlewis]

as said earlier the distances are relative to the courses played - for sure the masters course 1953/54 is different to todays 2017/18 course
but really would we expect it to be the same

the scores remain in the same ball park area they also have been - golf has not shown in anyways at all that it's goin to be a game played in scores below 60 a round

the genie is long out of the bottle & has been for some time to seek to try to put it back would be foolish to my mind
it's the nature of the human condition to seek to improve
i don't see that as a bad thing

Scores aren't dictated purely by course length though. Weather conditions / green speeds etc... all play a part.
So I'm not entirely sure how you could even try to compare a winning score from the 50s to this weekend.

Zach Johnson won the Masters 1 over par.

 

[Crow]

The game as it once was is already dead.

Most people are happy with that and when playing a traditional length course of around 6,000 to 6,500 yards are content with hitting driver, wedge on many par fours (or at worst a mid iron second), if that's what you like then all well and good and I say go for it.


If you'd rather have the challenge of hitting mid/long irons more often for your second shot, or even a wood oo:, then have a serious think about going down the vintage club route.

You'll need to swallow your pride somewhat and get used to being out-driven on most holes (but it's great when your drive is the longest ) and taking a longer iron for similar distance shots.
You might also see your handicap rise a couple of shots as your scoring adjusts to the "new" clubs, but if you stick at it for 6 or 12 months your handicap should have settled to your new club/ability combination and you'll then be able to play handicap golf just as competitively as you did before.

You might find that you get much more enjoyment from your golf, and get to play some shots that you'd forgotten about.


I started down this route towards the end of last year and have now stopped playing modern clubs completely.
In a club Stableford competition at the weekend I played with wooden woods, Dunlop blades and a bullseye style putter and scored 37 points to come 6th out of 102, if I can do it then anyone can.

 

[the_coach]

Scores aren't dictated purely by course length though. Weather conditions / green speeds etc... all play a part.
So I'm not entirely sure how you could even try to compare a winning score from the 50s to this weekend.

Zach Johnson won the Masters 1 over par.

you seemed to have missed the general point behind my comparison - it bein the development of the game through distance through clubs balls & physicality of the players hasn't & isn't (imo) ruining the game by making the game 'too easy' as that seems to be what is implied overall

scores are only relevant in as much as they are not massively improved overtime - had they done so then maybes there would be some point to the assertion that distance was ruining the game

to that your comment about zach (a shorter hitter in tour terms) being able to win the masters at all kinda speaks to the point i was highlighting

 

[the_coach]

I don't want to labour the point, but, of the 87 players who pegged it up he was 6th in driving distance and 13th in driving accuracy.
I'd say he's long AND accurate.
The telling stat was that, of those that played four rounds, he was 1st in putting with Rory 2nd!

was speaking in terms of distance & relative distance in tour terms to the point that imo distance is not ruining the game

& some of the longer tour hitters in the masters field occupied the bottom half of the top 10 places

{maybes in terms of the final round of the masters the most telling stat of all bein that rory's 74 was the worst score of those players who finished in the top 10 places}