And, we're off.....2016/17

[sawtooth]

When arsenal had money (pre emirates) I'd probably agree with the order.

But since the new stadium, with just PL counting, you have had no success, So financial struggles aside you shouldn't be on the list.

For the record, Ranieri wins the second list hands down, irrespective of past or future success. I'd also put moyes at everton above wenger if financial constraints count.

I hear what you say and it's really only a comparison between these 3. Just illustrating that it's not a level playing field so that needs to be taken into account when determining who is "best".

Moyes, Allardyce, and others would be top of their own category I am sure because they both have done managed clubs extremely well during the PL years.

Let's not forget Wengers achievements though, 3 PL titles, 6 FA cups ( most successful manager in this comp of all time) invincibles, etc.

Yes the second half of his career has less silverware but in my eyes is just as impressive qualifying for CL YoY and competing on all fronts whilst the clubs real priority was financing the new ground.
We are exiting that phase now and the team will be even more competitive in the years to come.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Let's not forget Wengers achievements though, 3 PL titles, 6 FA cups ( most successful manager in this comp of all time) invincibles, etc.

Yes the second half of his career has less silverware but in my eyes is just as impressive qualifying for CL YoY and competing on all fronts whilst the clubs real priority was financing the new ground.
We are exiting that phase now and the team will be even more competitive in the years to come.

Actually agree with what you say above,

However, to be more competitive surely that means win the PL and at least CL final as repeating top 4 and CL 1/4 Finals for the next 5-10 years would not progress.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I hear what you say and it's really only a comparison between these 3. Just illustrating that it's not a level playing field so that needs to be taken into account when determining who is "best".

Moyes, Allardyce, and others would be top of their own category I am sure because they both have done managed clubs extremely well during the PL years.

Let's not forget Wengers achievements though, 3 PL titles, 6 FA cups ( most successful manager in this comp of all time) invincibles, etc.

Yes the second half of his career has less silverware but in my eyes is just as impressive qualifying for CL YoY and competing on all fronts whilst the clubs real priority was financing the new ground.
We are exiting that phase now and the team will be even more competitive in the years to come.

I believe you have been saying that for a good couple of years now - is it the same as Article 50 and takes a good couple of years to exit ?

It's just more excuses - Leicester blew all your money excuses out of the window

 

[One Planer]

I believe you have been saying that for a good couple of years now - is it the same as Article 50 and takes a good couple of years to exit ?

It's just more excuses - Leicester blew all your money excuses out of the window

Not very often Phil and I agree but that is spot on right there :thup:

 

[Papas1982]

I believe you have been saying that for a good couple of years now - is it the same as Article 50 and takes a good couple of years to exit ?

It's just more excuses - Leicester blew all your money excuses out of the window

I agree with you re it being the same excuses year on year, but people (not just on here) keep bringing up Leicester. It was a freak of nature. Beating everyone with that yardstick is they same as calling people fools for working for 50 years because Jim and Sue down the road one the lottery.

For me, fabulous as it is, it was much Like Greece winning Euros or everton getting top 4 years ago. Its a one off and normality will resume, so hoping for it for your club would be naive.

 

[One Planer]

I agree with you re it being the same excuses year on year, but people (not just on here) keep bringing up Leicester. It was a freak of nature. Beating everyone with that yardstick is they same as calling people fools for working for 50 years because Jim and Sue down the road one the lottery.

For me, fabulous as it is, it was much Like Greece winning Euros or everton getting top 4 years ago. Its a one off and normality will resume, so hoping for it for your club would be naive.

The point is Leicester is they didn't buy the league. They won it through teamwork.

You're right, they may never win it again, but they proved it can be done without buying the league.

 

[sawtooth]

Actually agree with what you say above,

However, to be more competitive surely that means win the PL and at least CL final as repeating top 4 and CL 1/4 Finals for the next 5-10 years would not progress.

Thats true and I think it's a realistic goal to win either the PL or reach the CL within the next 5 years. Although I wouldn't bet on Wenger being manager beyond the next 2-3 years.

The club however will be perfectly set up for someone else to come in and take over.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I agree with you re it being the same excuses year on year, but people (not just on here) keep bringing up Leicester. It was a freak of nature. Beating everyone with that yardstick is they same as calling people fools for working for 50 years because Jim and Sue down the road one the lottery.

For me, fabulous as it is, it was much Like Greece winning Euros or everton getting top 4 years ago. Its a one off and normality will resume, so hoping for it for your club would be naive.

What Leicester showed is

You can get top quality world class players without spending multimillions

You can mould those top quality players along with decent players into a very good team that plays great football

That the right talented manager can build that team without the need of a sugar daddy and can apply the correct tactics and set up to beat the top teams to win a title

It maybe a one off and won't happen again but they proved that it can happen and that Arsenal constantly blaming money and injuries is just a poor excuse for them constantly failing to win the title when in good positions and constantly being nothing but also rans in the CL

 

[Deleted member 16999]

What Leicester showed is

You can get top quality world class players without spending multimillions

You can mould those top quality players along with decent players into a very good team that plays great football

That the right talented manager can build that team without the need of a sugar daddy and can apply the correct tactics and set up to beat the top teams to win a title

It maybe a one off and won't happen again but they proved that it can happen and that Arsenal constantly blaming money and injuries is just a poor excuse for them constantly failing to win the title when in good positions and constantly being nothing but also rans in the CL

Agree with everything except the Sugar Daddy, they are owned by a billionaire and are still being investigated for financial irregularities, their spend was no were near the big lads but what was spent was provided by him.
It wasn't done on a shoe string.
Doesn't detract from Ranieri and his ability though.

 

[sawtooth]

What Leicester showed is

You can get top quality world class players without spending multimillions

You can mould those top quality players along with decent players into a very good team that plays great football

That the right talented manager can build that team without the need of a sugar daddy and can apply the correct tactics and set up to beat the top teams to win a title

It maybe a one off and won't happen again but they proved that it can happen and that Arsenal constantly blaming money and injuries is just a poor excuse for them constantly failing to win the title when in good positions and constantly being nothing but also rans in the CL

You are missing one very important ingredient in the Leicester success story - good fortune.

Whilst they were a fantastic team last year and they very much deserved to win they were fortunate with injuries. This was probably due in part to not having to play European games midweek, they won't have that luxury next year. I read somewhere that the amount of changes they made to their starting 11 in a season was much lower than the norm and that was a key part of their success IMO.

Arsenal in contrast probably made more changes to the starting 11 than anyone else ( at a guess). Thats just how it goes and there's not much you can do about it.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

While it appears that there is a lot of focus on Arsenal here, many of the same comments could be levied on most sides with the exceptions perhaps of United, Chelsea and City who have perhaps dominated in reason years. What of the likes of Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal (of course) etc who have all bought players and managers in and yet cannot find a way to win the PL and in most cases get CL football. On that last count, I still think 16 (or is it now 17) consecutive qualification years is a might impressive.

It would be brilliant to see the likes of Liverpool return to their glory years, Everton to come good again and Spurs to give Arsenal a battle to be top dogs in north London. Add in the odd surprise package and it would make the PL far more rivetting which is why Leicester last year seemed to catch the imagination. I fear we'll be back to the usual City United Arsenal Chelsea domination yet again this year

 

[Liverbirdie]

I agree with you re it being the same excuses year on year, but people (not just on here) keep bringing up Leicester. It was a freak of nature. Beating everyone with that yardstick is they same as calling people fools for working for 50 years because Jim and Sue down the road one the lottery.

For me, fabulous as it is, it was much Like Greece winning Euros or everton getting top 4 years ago. Its a one off and normality will resume, so hoping for it for your club would be naive.

Spot on, as great as it was, you cant use it as an example of the pathway to choose for PL champions success.

I can see Mourinho now saying to Ed Woodward - right, go and buy me a French midfielder for 5mill, a French winger for 250k, and a Villa reject winger, and ex. Fleetwood player...........

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You are missing one very important ingredient in the Leicester success story - good fortune.

Whilst they were a fantastic team last year and they very much deserved to win they were fortunate with injuries. This was probably due in part to not having to play European games midweek, they won't have that luxury next year. I read somewhere that the amount of changes they made to their starting 11 in a season was much lower than the norm and that was a key part of their success IMO.

Arsenal in contrast probably made more changes to the starting 11 than anyone else ( at a guess). Thats just how it goes and there's not much you can do about it.

Arsenal were top at new year and then over the next 8 weeks dropped like a stone with no European games being played

It's just more excuses - if the issue is with injuries why does Wenger persist with players who are constantly injured - why hasn't he gone out and bought cover for players who get injured

When Giroud went a couple months without scoring was that because of injuries ? Ozil , Sanchez all still around , back four still the same - injuries is a poor excuse

 

[Blue in Munich]

You are missing one very important ingredient in the Leicester success story - good fortune.

Whilst they were a fantastic team last year and they very much deserved to win they were fortunate with injuries. This was probably due in part to not having to play European games midweek, they won't have that luxury next year. I read somewhere that the amount of changes they made to their starting 11 in a season was much lower than the norm and that was a key part of their success IMO.

Arsenal in contrast probably made more changes to the starting 11 than anyone else ( at a guess). Thats just how it goes and there's not much you can do about it.

Rather than claiming Leicester were lucky, should you not be more concerned about the fact that for more than a few years, Arsenal's challenge falls apart at the same time of the season and for the same reasons? It doesn't seem to happen at a number of other clubs.

 

[Liverbirdie]

While it appears that there is a lot of focus on Arsenal here, many of the same comments could be levied on most sides with the exceptions perhaps of United, Chelsea and City who have perhaps dominated in reason years. What of the likes of Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal (of course) etc who have all bought players and managers in and yet cannot find a way to win the PL and in most cases get CL football. On that last count, I still think 16 (or is it now 17) consecutive qualification years is a might impressive.

It would be brilliant to see the likes of Liverpool return to their glory years, Everton to come good again and Spurs to give Arsenal a battle to be top dogs in north London. Add in the odd surprise package and it would make the PL far more rivetting which is why Leicester last year seemed to catch the imagination. I fear we'll be back to the usual City United Arsenal Chelsea domination yet again this year

You could do it overnight.

Lets introduce a new investment capping scheme, for arguments sake we'll call it "financial fair play" , and with Arsenal, City, United, Liverpool, Spurs, Newcastle, West ham, Chelsea, Sunderland and possibly Everton in future all playing in 50k+ stadiums and just surviving on gate receipts and equal telly money, I'm sure we would have lots of changes in the PL winners and CL qualifiers changing every year - it would be great.:thup: Clubs with smaller gates/resources could still upset the apple cart by good management and equal telly money with the traditional big boys, so the likes of Stoke, Southampton, Villa etc may also have a chance.

 

[One Planer]

You could do it overnight.

Lets introduce a new investment capping scheme, for arguments sake we'll call it "financial fair play" , and with Arsenal, City, United, Liverpool, Spurs, Newcastle, West ham, Chelsea, Sunderland and possibly Everton in future all playing in 50k+ stadiums and just surviving on gate receipts and equal telly money, I'm sure we would have lots of changes in the PL winners and CL qualifiers changing every year - it would be great.:thup: Clubs with smaller gates/resources could still upset the apple cart by good management and equal telly money with the traditional big boys, so the likes of Stoke, Southampton, Villa etc may also have a chance.

No they wouldn't

 

[Liverbirdie]

No they wouldn't

Sorry, I meant the giants of the potteries - Stone - my mistake.

 

[sawtooth]

Rather than claiming Leicester were lucky, should you not be more concerned about the fact that for more than a few years, Arsenal's challenge falls apart at the same time of the season and for the same reasons? It doesn't seem to happen at a number of other clubs.

I guess because Arsenal are consistently in contention YoY that you notice it more with Arsenal.

The one year recently that Liverpool were close their challenge fell apart too. Same for Spurs last year but because both of those clubs don't consistently threaten to win the league they aren't serial offenders like Arsenal.

You could say that Arsenal are victims of their own success in that regard. Maybe it would be better to fall away to mid table and lie low for a while then come back and mount a serious challenge every 5 years? ;-)

 

[sawtooth]

You could do it overnight.

Lets introduce a new investment capping scheme, for arguments sake we'll call it "financial fair play" , and with Arsenal, City, United, Liverpool, Spurs, Newcastle, West ham, Chelsea, Sunderland and possibly Everton in future all playing in 50k+ stadiums and just surviving on gate receipts and equal telly money, I'm sure we would have lots of changes in the PL winners and CL qualifiers changing every year - it would be great.:thup: Clubs with smaller gates/resources could still upset the apple cart by good management and equal telly money with the traditional big boys, so the likes of Stoke, Southampton, Villa etc may also have a chance.

I like that idea.

Bring in a minimum quota of English players while you are at it so we can improve the national team as well.

 

[Papas1982]

I guess because Arsenal are consistently in contention YoY that you notice it more with Arsenal.

The one year recently that Liverpool were close their challenge fell apart too. Same for Spurs last year but because both of those clubs don't consistently threaten to win the league they aren't serial offenders like Arsenal.

You could say that Arsenal are victims of their own success in that regard. Maybe it would be better to fall away to mid table and lie low for a while then come back and mount a serious challenge every 5 years? ;-)

In the last 10 years Arsneal have been 10 points, 12, 7, 16, 19, 12, 11, 18, 4, 21, 24 behind the winners.
Or 154 points.
Or 15.4 per season.

The fact you consider that challenging is the very crux of your problem. If you're seriously happy to just watch CL every season, then to a point i can respect that. But to continue to suggest that you have a chance of anything else just looks foolish.