And, we're off.....2016/17

[Tashyboy]

Anyone care to enlighten me re the differance between the feghouli and Fernandinho tackles. Both had there feet off the ground and both made contact with players. In the eyes of the law, it's a red card. The ref knows that and more importantly, so do the players..

Even if I do think it is a stupid rule.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I'd suggest by the fact that he's rolling around asa much as he was Paul. Anytime I've seen someone who was genuinely seriously injured they either don't move much at all or scream & move but on the spot; they don't roll around like Jones did. And seriously, how hard would he have had to have been kicked to move him that far, especially considering that it would have had to have overcome the momentum he put in? Jones should be seriously embarrassed when he sees that back.

I get that, Jones was simply an example in answer to Sawtooth saying the Ref should not stop play in a 50/50 tackle, the Ref has to stop play these days if he thinks someone could have a bad injury,

 

[Fish]

I get that, Jones was simply an example in answer to Sawtooth saying the Ref should not stop play in a 50/50 tackle, the Ref has to stop play these days if he thinks someone could have a bad injury,

I think Neville had it spot on, I don't think MD saw him off the ground and initially saw it as a 50/50 as he looked away to follow the ball/play, if he had thought either tackle was reckless at the time he wouldn't have looked for an advantage or for the game to carry on, he would have blown immediately. I think the extent of Jones rolling around forced his hand and changed his initial opinion of what he saw, unfortunately MD will now have a perfect get out because there is no doubt the player was fully off the ground when lunging in, so whether we think it's 50/50 or not, the ref has the ruling on his side and any appeal will fail, imo.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Anyone care to enlighten me re the differance between the feghouli and Fernandinho tackles. Both had there feet off the ground and both made contact with players. In the eyes of the law, it's a red card. The ref knows that and more importantly, so do the players..

Even if I do think it is a stupid rule.

The difference between the two is quite clear - Fernandinho went off the ground and dived in using a scissor motion and landing two footed - clear red card

The West Ham player and Jones both went for a 50/50 - neither were going in two footed , Jones beat the West Ham player to the ball with the West Ham player being a fraction late and hitting Jones - a foul and yellow card at most

Bar the odd one - every single pundit , ex player , ex ref , newspapers all seem to agree that it should have only been a yellow for the West Ham player and a clear red for Fernandinho

Mike Dean imo watched the play then reacted to the Jones multi role around the pitch as if he had been shot , Lee Mason had a clear look at the Fernandinho tackle and got it spot on

Mike Dean once again got it wrong - he was shocking in the recent Derby with the clear late tackle on Henderson which should have been a red and was wrong with the most recent red he has dished out - he imo is arrogant as a ref , too busy interested in his "internet fame" in regards his mannerisms when he refs and that masks how many poor decisions he makes - he is up there ( or should I say down there ) with the likes of Mike Jones , Uriah Rennie , Steve Bennett and Rob Styles as the worst refs seen in the Prem

 

[freddielong]

I think Neville had it spot on, I don't think MD saw him off the ground and initially saw it as a 50/50 as he looked away to follow the ball/play, if he had thought either tackle was reckless at the time he wouldn't have looked for an advantage or for the game to carry on, he would have blown immediately. I think the extent of Jones rolling around forced his hand and changed his initial opinion of what he saw, unfortunately MD will now have a perfect get out because there is no doubt the player was fully off the ground when lunging in, so whether we think it's 50/50 or not, the ref has the ruling on his side and any appeal will fail, imo.

This is how I saw it, Dean definitely looks away and follows the ball, he looks back due to the screams of Jones and thinks maybe I missed something I better send him off.

The worry is though with Dean his mistakes always tend to favour the same teams.

 

[Slime]

I think Jones was play acting as he thought he was in for a red card.
Only seen one replay but from that angle it appeared Jones was the one who "dove" in without control.

In case you missed it, Jones got the ball before Feghouli arrived off the ground.

Obviously everyone who's posted has seen the tackle and we've got:

Red Card - Feghouli
Yellow Card - Feghouli
No Foul
Red Card -Jones
Yellow Cards - Man Utd Players

And then the Ref gets stick for making a decision........Easy game this.

Excellent post ..................... poor refs have absolutely no chance, not on this forum anyway .

 

[Fish]

In case you missed it, Jones got the ball .

Winning or getting the ball first doesn't mean he wasn't reckless or committing a foul though, we just saw that with Ferdie who got the ball but it was a scissor tackle taking the man afterwards and he rightly walked!

Players coming in from behind or head on and getting to the ball marginally first does not excuse them if they have done so whilst committing a foul, it doesn't exoneration them as some seem to believe!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I heard Ray Wilkins describe the Jones aspect of the tackle this morning as "he cleared out the attacker". Took the ball, no question, but also fully took out the West Ham player. An old fashioned tackle in effect which in the modern era is not often seen as it gives the ref a chance to book you. I am absolutely not advocating that Jones should have been carded but clearing out a player is a risky business in modern football.

Stay on your feet, stops the problem. If you were a manager you would be pounding that into players heads all the time.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I heard Ray Wilkins describe the Jones aspect of the tackle this morning as "he cleared out the attacker". Took the ball, no question, but also fully took out the West Ham player. An old fashioned tackle in effect which in the modern era is not often seen as it gives the ref a chance to book you. I am absolutely not advocating that Jones should have been carded but clearing out a player is a risky business in modern football.

Stay on your feet, stops the problem. If you were a manager you would be pounding that into players heads all the time.

Whether Feghouli should've been sent
off or not, I really really can't see anything wrong with Jones tackle, Feghouli took a heavy touch and Jones reacted quickly and ckeared the ball, Feghouli was late and caught Jones or Jones couldn't miss him.
Obviously from the Refs point of view Jones did nothing wrong and was never going to book him for the 2.5 rolls and a tuck.

 

[sawtooth]

I heard Ray Wilkins describe the Jones aspect of the tackle this morning as "he cleared out the attacker". Took the ball, no question, but also fully took out the West Ham player. An old fashioned tackle in effect which in the modern era is not often seen as it gives the ref a chance to book you. I am absolutely not advocating that Jones should have been carded but clearing out a player is a risky business in modern football.

Stay on your feet, stops the problem. If you were a manager you would be pounding that into players heads all the time.

I agree to some extent and its a basic principle of good defending. However, it is absolutely necessary sometimes to commit to a challenge to avoid injury. Good coaches tell you that also.

Can you imagine what could have happened to Feghouli or Jones if either one of them had remained stood up?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Can you imagine what could have happened to Feghouli or Jones if either one of them had remained stood up?

Nothing most likely. Neither would have been sent off. I doubt they would have full on collided as a head on collision rarely happens. Self preservation takes over.

Nearly all reckless tackles involve being off your feet. Now I do get that sometimes you need to slide in or extend yourself but if you look back over the season and see why players are given straight reds for tackles and I suspect 95% are off their feet.

I heard Danny Murphy on the radio a month or two ago talking about how he coped as a central midfielder if he was on a booking. The key thought in his mind at that stage was stay on your feet. He cut out the diving tackles, the lunges etc and stayed upright.

 

[sawtooth]

Nothing most likely. Neither would have been sent off. I doubt they would have full on collided as a head on collision rarely happens. Self preservation takes over.

Nearly all reckless tackles involve being off your feet. Now I do get that sometimes you need to slide in or extend yourself but if you look back over the season and see why players are given straight reds for tackles and I suspect 95% are off their feet.

I heard Danny Murphy on the radio a month or two ago talking about how he coped as a central midfielder if he was on a booking. The key thought in his mind at that stage was stay on your feet. He cut out the diving tackles, the lunges etc and stayed upright.

What I meant is if one player had stayed on their feet and the other went flying in you are at risk of serious injury.

Most of us were taught to be fully committed in challenges instead of hanging back ( protecting ourself) for that reason.

When I say fully committed I mean fair and hard not reckless and OTT.

 

[pbrown7582]

Mike dean did even things out though by not sending kouyate off for what was a two footed out of control lunge......

 

[clubchamp98]

Obviously everyone who's posted has seen the tackle and we've got:

Red Card - Feghouli
Yellow Card - Feghouli
No Foul
Red Card -Jones
Yellow Cards - Man Utd Players

And then the Ref gets stick for making a decision........Easy game this.

But it is the referees that don't want the technology because it will show how wrong they get some big decisions.
how many goal line decisions at the weekend with Mark Clatenberg pointing to his watch you can't argue with the ref when he points to the technology making the correct decision.
How many of them would have been waved away.
i am not really slagging refs off I just think they should accept that the speed of players now that they need all the help they can get.
The players don't help all this rolling around .
they should take a look at Rugby it's part of the tension in the game waiting for the video ref to decide by the time Jones had been treated the decision could be made.
but four people have come to a different decision on this forum so no system is perfect just think you might get a better decision if video is used.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

But it is the referees that don't want the technology because it will show how wrong they get some big decisions.
how many goal line decisions at the weekend with Mark Clatenberg pointing to his watch you can't argue with the ref when he points to the technology making the correct decision.
How many of them would have been waved away.
i am not really slagging refs off I just think they should accept that the speed of players now that they need all the help they can get.
The players don't help all this rolling around .
they should take a look at Rugby it's part of the tension in the game waiting for the video ref to decide by the time Jones had been treated the decision could be made.
but four people have come to a different decision on this forum so no system is perfect just think you might get a better decision if video is used.

It's one of them subjects that divides opinion as well and has been discussed at length, some totally agree, some think part technology etc.
For me part of what I love about the game is these decisions, the FA will look at it and decide, nobody is perfect and I don't believe any Official makes a mistake on purpose.

 

[clubchamp98]

This is how I saw it, Dean definitely looks away and follows the ball, he looks back due to the screams of Jones and thinks maybe I missed something I better send him off.

The worry is though with Dean his mistakes always tend to favour the same teams.

he plays on the Maxitour where most of the comps are in Manchester with a few ex Man U players also play don't know where he lives but if he is Manchester based he should not be doing Manchester clubs games.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

he plays on the Maxitour where most of the comps are in Manchester with a few ex Man U players also play don't know where he lives but if he is Manchester based he should not be doing Manchester clubs games.

He lives in North Wales and he's a Blue apparently.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

Refs should wear head cams like rugby refs do, then that evidence would dispel the old " I didn't see it" scenario.

Dean imo only gave that red card because of Jones reaction.

 

[clubchamp98]

It's one of them subjects that divides opinion as well and has been discussed at length, some totally agree, some think part technology etc.
For me part of what I love about the game is these decisions, the FA will look at it and decide, nobody is perfect and I don't believe any Official makes a mistake on purpose.

Agree with this but if I was refing a game with what is in effect 22 speed merchants I would welcome some help.
look how long it took to get goal line technology so not holding my breath.
but basics still not good look at linesman in Man U second goal that was a shocker.
video would sort that instantly as the game was stopped any way.

 

[Hobbit]

I think Neville had it spot on, I don't think MD saw him off the ground and initially saw it as a 50/50 as he looked away to follow the ball/play, if he had thought either tackle was reckless at the time he wouldn't have looked for an advantage or for the game to carry on, he would have blown immediately. I think the extent of Jones rolling around forced his hand and changed his initial opinion of what he saw, unfortunately MD will now have a perfect get out because there is no doubt the player was fully off the ground when lunging in, so whether we think it's 50/50 or not, the ref has the ruling on his side and any appeal will fail, imo.

Not picking on you specifically Robin, but using your post to highlight a point.

Its an assumption by Neville, its not known as fact. And you're assuming Neville's assumption is right to back up your argument. What if both Neville's and your assumption is wrong? Alan Curbishley saw it as I saw it. The guy was off the ground, straight red. But is Cirbsihley's assumption right? Strangely enough, he came to the same conclusion as the guy who made the decision.

The only person who knows why the WH player was sent off is Mike Dean.

For those who though it was a 50/50 ball, why didn't Fego-whatsit arrive at the same time as Jones? He didn't, therefore it wasn't a 50/50 ball. He judgement was flawed.

Once upon a time it wouldn't even have warranted a card, but it does now. Crikey, I'd have spent half the season on the sidelines. And, equally, I've gone for a ball knowing the other guy has already committed to the lunge, and that I'll get there first and get the foul. Doing that I've had two nasty injuries, and thank god there's now more than just a free kick at stake for being reckless.

Or look at it another way, Jones was lucky not to get his leg broken.