Addressing rule breaking on the course

[Tommo21]

Okay..I asked him to move, twice as well. Rule or not, etiquette or not......it's rude, it's off putting. Play your own game I say.

 

[In_The_Rough]

Golf is taken way to seriously. If somebody wants to cheat they are only cheating themselves. Why get worked up about it and go complaining/petitioning committees about it. Go out play your best and enjoy it. All this moaning about slow play/cheats/bandits etc does nobody any favours, it has always been there for as long as I can remember and always will be

 

[rosecott]

Golf is taken way to seriously. If somebody wants to cheat they are only cheating themselves. Why get worked up about it and go complaining/petitioning committees about it. Go out play your best and enjoy it. All this moaning about slow play/cheats/bandits etc does nobody any favours, it has always been there for as long as I can remember and always will be

It's not quite true that they are only cheating themselves. If a player is persistently cheating and consistently getting into the prize money, he is effectively stealing other players' money.

 

[Tommo21]

It's not quite true that they are only cheating themselves. If a player is persistently cheating and consistently getting into the prize money, he is effectively stealing other players' money.

Is the right answer.......

 

[Deleted member 17920]

It's not quite true that they are only cheating themselves. If a player is persistently cheating and consistently getting into the prize money, he is effectively stealing other players' money.

Is exactly the correct answer, By all means if you are playing for nothing with your mates do what the hell you want, If its a comp involving everyone else chucking money in then play by the rules or don't bother playing at all

 

[In_The_Rough]

You accuse somebody of cheating creates an atmosphere and usually ends up with bad feelings around the club between rival groups. I have seen it happen on more than one occasion. Also you have to be wary of who you are accusing as if they are well connected or long standing club members or both then you are on a hiding to nothing. Not worth the aggro if you ask me. At my previous club I knew who the HCP bandits were and who struggled with their adding up but reporting them would have cast me as the outsider as well as bad feeling and behind the back whispering. Not worth the hassle in my book. You wish to go down that route then go for it but count me out. Expose one cheat another will surface. Also in the current climate clubs are less willing to take any action due to potentially losing members. Why get worked up about it.

 

[Deleted member 17920]

You accuse somebody of cheating creates an atmosphere and usually ends up with bad feelings around the club between rival groups. I have seen it happen on more than one occasion. Also you have to be wary of who you are accusing as if they are well connected or long standing club members or both then you are on a hiding to nothing. Not worth the aggro if you ask me. At my previous club I knew who the HCP bandits were and who struggled with their adding up but reporting them would have cast me as the outsider as well as bad feeling and behind the back whispering. Not worth the hassle in my book. You wish to go down that route then go for it but count me out. Expose one cheat another will surface. Also in the current climate clubs are less willing to take any action due to potentially losing members. Why get worked up about it.

Its a valid point you are making about been on a hiding to nothing but why let someone cheat? I would feel awful if I won declaring a 4 instead of a 5 or I feel I have gained an advantage by moving my ball to a position that made it easier.

If you don't want to go to the trouble of making a scene then a friendly word is all that's needs.

In the op it could off been handled straight away walking off with a gentle word and that would have solved that one. He now agrees with that.

With what you are saying about the fc scoring its worth just saying are you sure lets just take a re count of your shots, Its how its worded, no one needs to fall out about it, If you nip it in the bud straight away it sorts itself out on the golf course and I guarantee they will count the shots properly if they know you are counting on their behalf!

Now for people dropping balls and kicking it from the rough that's all a different matter and that's where its going to kick off big time.
That's where you have to be very careful and you need real proof before mentioning that one! Seen that at a golf club in Lincolnshire this year. Turned very nasty.

 

[duncan mackie]

You accuse somebody of cheating creates an atmosphere and usually ends up with bad feelings around the club between rival groups...........................Also in the current climate clubs are less willing to take any action due to potentially losing members.

drawing someone's attention to a possible rule infringment with appropriate words, at the appropriate time, isn't accusing them of cheating, as other's have posted.

in saying nothing until you refuse to sign their card, tell them later, tell everyone else, tell the committee you are certainly likely to cause many of the issues you raise.

as to your last point - I have seen quite the opposite in practice. clubs are concerned that the right people remain as members!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

On leaving the green I would tell the guy that he needs to be more careful as to how he marks his ball.

If he reacts badly just say that some golfers may view his actions as gaining advantage.

Telling off and being neutral at the same time.

That's all.

That's the way to do it! :thup:

Depending upon reaction I might add words along the lines of

'this might seem overly fussy of me and I might not be personally that bothered about the way you mark and replace - but I am representing others in the competition who possibly would be'

 

[In_The_Rough]

Its a valid point you are making about been on a hiding to nothing but why let someone cheat? I would feel awful if I won declaring a 4 instead of a 5 or I feel I have gained an advantage by moving my ball to a position that made it easier.

If you don't want to go to the trouble of making a scene then a friendly word is all that's needs.

In the op it could off been handled straight away walking off with a gentle word and that would have solved that one. He now agrees with that.

With what you are saying about the fc scoring its worth just saying are you sure lets just take a re count of your shots, Its how its worded, no one needs to fall out about it, If you nip it in the bud straight away it sorts itself out on the golf course and I guarantee they will count the shots properly if they know you are counting on their behalf!

Now for people dropping balls and kicking it from the rough that's all a different matter and that's where its going to kick off big time.
That's where you have to be very careful and you need real proof before mentioning that one! Seen that at a golf club in Lincolnshire this year. Turned very nasty.

Good debate this and some very interesting points. You yourself sound like you are totally honest and the scenarios you give are mistakes or if you have doubt about something in which I am sure you would raise immediately as soon as you realise what has occurred. A world away from cheating which IMO is where somebody purposely sets out to do something that is clearly against the rules. Its these cases which are the ones that I am on about then it would IMO more than likely lead to bad feeling even if it was a whisper in the offenders ear while walking off from the hole. With regards to the OP I am not sure what would have happened TBH, if the chap was doing it on purpose then it would possibly been fall out time if he was blissfully unaware then it would all have been forgotten about.

 

[In_The_Rough]

drawing someone's attention to a possible rule infringment with appropriate words, at the appropriate time, isn't accusing them of cheating, as other's have posted.

in saying nothing until you refuse to sign their card, tell them later, tell everyone else, tell the committee you are certainly likely to cause many of the issues you raise.

as to your last point - I have seen quite the opposite in practice. clubs are concerned that the right people remain as members![/QUOTE]

To the accused it will be though especially if they are doing it on purpose. i.e cheating
With regards to the clubs you area may well be different. Where I am based they will hold onto any members good or bad as it is income and seen as a necessary evil. I know of one chap who has had more warnings and written letters from the club about various matters but is still a member. The club are just being seen to do the right thing that is all when they have no intention to lose a member.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I will admit to having deliberately broken the rules when marking and replacing - in fact I did it fairly recently in a friendly roll-up comp. Greens had been tined and were a bit like these drain covers with holes. My ball ended sat in a depression around a tine hole - and no LR in palce to give me relief. So I marked it and placed it just to the side of the depression - as close as I could without it rolling back into the depression. My PPs said OK - I did ask! But it is cheating is it not? - and my PPs can't waive a rule. Did I gain an advantage? - almost certainly yes as in I didn't suffer the 'disadvantage' of putting with my ball sat in a depression in the green. Would I do that in a proper competition? In honesty - no I wouldn't. I'd putt it from the little depression. Silly? Petty stickler to the rules? Probably. Would I expect FCs to do the same in the same circumstances - yes - sorry.

 

[chrisd]

I would never be at the stage of refusing to sign a card before I talked to a wrongdoer. I would only refuse to to sign if they continued to do wrong after I mentioned something, it was stroke play and they didn't add penalties if I asked them to. In Matchplay I would only penalise them if they clearly broke a rule deliberately and, again, if the rule had been pointed out earlier or that the infringement gave so much an advantage it couldn't be ignored

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Okay..I asked him to move, twice as well. Rule or not, etiquette or not......it's rude, it's off putting. Play your own game I say.

I learned that lesson many years ago - and I wasn't even looking down the line of the PPs when he politely but firmly asked me to move off the line of his putt. And I do it today when I come across it. In the same way that I ask someone who is standing towards the back of the tee looking down my line as I tee off to move.

 

[ColchesterFC]

I will admit to having deliberately broken the rules when marking and replacing - in fact I did it fairly recently in a friendly roll-up comp. But it is cheating is it not? - and my PPs can't waive a rule. Did I gain an advantage? - almost certainly yes as in I didn't suffer the 'disadvantage' of putting with my ball sat in a depression in the green. Would I do that in a proper competition? In honesty - no I wouldn't. I'd putt it from the little depression.

I would say that this couldn't be classed as cheating for the simple fact that it was a friendly roll up game and your playing partners agreed that you could do it. All sorts of rules get introduced into friendly games and while not within the rules of golf can't be cheating if all players agree to them. I've played in games with a length of string (1ft per stroke of handicap and ball can be moved a distnace and you cut off that length of string), mulligans and pick and place on the fairway even if not covered by a local rule. None of this is cheating as all players were happy with the rules we were playing to.
But as you say, obviously in a competition the rules of golf apply and stepping outside these would be cheating/gaining an unfair advantage.

My question would be, if someone is unaware of a rule and breaks it, are they cheating? If it is pointed out to them and they continue to do it then I would say they are guilty. In a court of law ignorance is no defence but I would suggest that on a golf course a bit of leeway has to be given to those with a lesser knowledge of the rules. I will admit that my rules knowledge isn't as good as it should be but I will always ask one of my fellow players before I take any action just to be safe.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I would say that this couldn't be classed as cheating for the simple fact that it was a friendly roll up game and your playing partners agreed that you could do it. All sorts of rules get introduced into friendly games and while not within the rules of golf can't be cheating if all players agree to them. I've played in games with a length of string (1ft per stroke of handicap and ball can be moved a distnace and you cut off that length of string), mulligans and pick and place on the fairway even if not covered by a local rule. None of this is cheating as all players were happy with the rules we were playing to.
But as you say, obviously in a competition the rules of golf apply and stepping outside these would be cheating/gaining an unfair advantage.

Agreed - EXCEPT - our roll-up is usually individual stableford scores - with up to 24 playing. So should my PPs really agree to me moving my ball when replacing it (unless the roll-up agrees prior to going out that we can move out of tining depressions). Yes it's friendly - but others might not ask and play as it lies. Really comes down to the need for consistency in application of the rules across a competition - and that is the bottom line of why we should mention rule-breaking when it occurs. In a recent roll-up two of our three ball (AM-AM team) pulled up our third for teeing up ahead of the tee markers - it's careless - it's unintended - it didn't give him any advantage - but it's against the rules. We didn't apply any penalty - as a team we cheated

 

[Deleted member 17920]

Good debate this and some very interesting points. You yourself sound like you are totally honest and the scenarios you give are mistakes or if you have doubt about something in which I am sure you would raise immediately as soon as you realise what has occurred. A world away from cheating which IMO is where somebody purposely sets out to do something that is clearly against the rules. Its these cases which are the ones that I am on about then it would IMO more than likely lead to bad feeling even if it was a whisper in the offenders ear while walking off from the hole. With regards to the OP I am not sure what would have happened TBH, if the chap was doing it on purpose then it would possibly been fall out time if he was blissfully unaware then it would all have been forgotten about.

Yes mate I am totally honest and I always will be, 5 years ago I could have won the club champs as my marker put me down for a par but I actually had a bogey. If I had signed for the par he gave me instead of saying I had a bogey I would have won then I would have felt so bad about winning by cheating.

 

[In_The_Rough]

Yes mate I am totally honest and I always will be, 5 years ago I could have won the club champs as my marker put me down for a par but I actually had a bogey. If I had signed for the par he gave me instead of saying I had a bogey I would have won then I would have felt so bad about winning by cheating.

This is what I mean by honest mistakes and deliberately cheating. You clearly do not and are to be commended for that

 

[garyinderry]

when we played st annes old links recently in the north west gm winter links oom, I queried could I move the ball out of the hollow tinned depression as we were playing with a lift clean and place rule. no one knew so at least two putts that day were hit with the ball in a small hole. as expected the ball jumped into the air on impact.

common sense should be for all hallow tinned greens 6inch placement no nearer the hole. 6 inches is not needed, only about 1 is necessary.

 

[Deleted member 17920]

This is what I mean by honest mistakes and deliberately cheating. You clearly do not and are to be commended for that

And I can understand why some people do cheat, I play with a good bunch of lads and I know them fairly well to say none off them would deliberately cheat, however some of them really are terrible with the rules and they just need a gentle pointer in the right direction.none of them has ever taken any offence at been told the rules,the 28 handicapper also has an occasional counting problem but normally was that a 15 or 16 Dave lol.