jdchelsea
Head Pro
C'mon Foxy.... where are you pal?
Seeing as foxholer isn't going to reply are you going to give us your thoughts on this?
2 questions for Foxholer
- Thread starter JustOne
- Start date
Seeing as foxholer isn't going to reply are you going to give us your thoughts on this?
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
Sure. The essence of the post followed on from the thread pertaining to rolling the wrists.. should you or shouldn't you. From the information Trackman provides about ballflight laws it's clear that the clubface to draw the ball is open to the target... so rolling your wrists would (at least) risk the clubface closing too much and you hitting hooks all day. If you think about rolling the wrists you have to ask WHEN it would occur... if it's before the ball then you're in trouble, if it's as the ball is hit then how on earth do you get that spot on every time (and what effect would it have) and if it's after the ball the does it matter at all?
....and yet you can find 1,000's of instruction pieces on the web/forums/youtube all talking about the necessity to roll your wrists, when it clearly isn't necessary, if any rolling occurs it's down to the the PHYSICAL need and the way our joints work that the clubhead may turn over, if at all.
The questions I posed were not just tongue in cheek but great examples of misinformation and how we interpret them... wrongly in most instances.
If you take the first question:
The answer is NO and yet you'll find 1,000's or even 10's of 1,000's of instruction pieces across all media stating that the clubhead should be vertical. As you can see from some of the pictures posted above in the replies it's clearly not the case that the toe is pointed upwards.... indeed it points at a tilted angle towards the line of the stance that the player has adopted... the 'assumed' target line.
This example clearly shows that rolling the wrists and 'toe up' are essentially misinformation.. take that as you will.
The second question:
2) Should we cup the left wrist through impact/release?
Actually refers to an interesting phenom (closely related to the rolling of the wrists question)..... and here's a picture...
As you can see McIlroy has a cupped left wrist at the top of his swing... when did that happen? Is it something we are supposed to play for? Do you swing through and ACTIVELY think "I need to make sure I cup my wrist on the follow through"?... I don't think so. It's something that we PHYSICALLY do, call it a comfort thing if you want.. we don't have to do it.. just like rolling the club/wrists in the follow through...we do it because it just happens sometimes (according to the shot we're playing sometimes).
As it happens we should NOT cup our left wrist through impact, it should remain as flat as possible... of course there are limits ranging from 'a bit cupped' to 'a bit bowed' but the point being we shouldn't actively try to cup our wrist through the ball.. if it happens AFTER we've struck the ball it's biomechanics that causes it and not a conscious 'timing' effort on our part.
Last edited:
Foxholer
Blackballed
C'mon Foxy.... where are you pal?
Woops. Only just discovered this!
To answer the questions though.
1. Don't really care!
2. Don't really care!
It's what happening at impact that matters.
However:
Square to the swing plane seems pretty sensible to me - though I'd replace the 'Big No Go' with 'Undesireable' though. Iffy (and not really qualified to comment) on relationship to spine angle - 1PS vs 2PS?
I believe wrist cupping, or not, is very personal. Hogan cupped. Tiger is flat. Cupping can help reduce hooks. Flat reduce slices (and the detrimental reverse of course).
BTW JO. It appears you didn't need m to reply anyway. You've answered your own question (again?)!
Last edited:
SGC001
Challenge Tour Pro
Here's a couple of images (hopefully) from Cochran and Stobbs search for the perfect swing.
They identify 5 movements in a model backswing:
a turn of the shoulders around the spine axis
raising the arm vertically from the shoulder and cocking the wrist
arm swung across the chest putting the hand in plane
roll of the left forearm putting the clubhead into plane
Images 1 and 2 show these 5 movements
http://img6.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/16337/16337588-100x100-40d78e12db5ad2ae7d3f1d886b148cee.jpg
http://img8.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/16337/16337589-100x100-6bafdd1cb191b7fa57489bcdbc65b1e6.jpg
They identify roll of the left forearm as movement enabling the backswing of the left arm to follow the model.
Image 3 gives may help to picture forearm roll, by imaging the relationship of the forearm bones
http://img2.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/16337/16337590-100x100-b26f9d7eca5cc32ac5db65d8f851377d.jpg
Image 4 illustrates the discussion on takeaway they had
http://img7.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/16337/16337601-100x100-bfd970f811a74a916abf185007beef36.jpg
As for roll they discuss what they term squares and rollers and write: There is always roll; but the amount, and timing, of roll which a player uses can vary widely.
Of the earlier images in the thread with the skeleton (where are they from I like them) it's interesting to note the left hand position at the top and where the club would point in relation to that hand position. It seems similar to the last 2 drawings in image 2 here (with and without left arm roll).
They identify 5 movements in a model backswing:
a turn of the shoulders around the spine axis
raising the arm vertically from the shoulder and cocking the wrist
arm swung across the chest putting the hand in plane
roll of the left forearm putting the clubhead into plane
Images 1 and 2 show these 5 movements
http://img6.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/16337/16337588-100x100-40d78e12db5ad2ae7d3f1d886b148cee.jpg
http://img8.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/16337/16337589-100x100-6bafdd1cb191b7fa57489bcdbc65b1e6.jpg
They identify roll of the left forearm as movement enabling the backswing of the left arm to follow the model.
Image 3 gives may help to picture forearm roll, by imaging the relationship of the forearm bones
http://img2.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/16337/16337590-100x100-b26f9d7eca5cc32ac5db65d8f851377d.jpg
Image 4 illustrates the discussion on takeaway they had
http://img7.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/16337/16337601-100x100-bfd970f811a74a916abf185007beef36.jpg
As for roll they discuss what they term squares and rollers and write: There is always roll; but the amount, and timing, of roll which a player uses can vary widely.
Of the earlier images in the thread with the skeleton (where are they from I like them) it's interesting to note the left hand position at the top and where the club would point in relation to that hand position. It seems similar to the last 2 drawings in image 2 here (with and without left arm roll).
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
SGC001, the pics are too small to see precisely the message they are trying to convey. Are they discussing the 'toe up' position?
That said there is arguement for whether or not there is roll in relation to how well you turn your shoulders, if you turn well then there's little/no roll, however if you use what can be described as a FAKE TURN (where the left arm practically lays across the shoulder plane and you THINK you're turning whereas you haven't really turned your upper body at all) you can end up with huge amounts of forearm roll.... not really the advised way to swing a club though
In club golfers there's probably a very high % of players that in reality use a fake turn so the forearms DO roll. Not ideally the thing to be taught though.
That said there is arguement for whether or not there is roll in relation to how well you turn your shoulders, if you turn well then there's little/no roll, however if you use what can be described as a FAKE TURN (where the left arm practically lays across the shoulder plane and you THINK you're turning whereas you haven't really turned your upper body at all) you can end up with huge amounts of forearm roll.... not really the advised way to swing a club though
In club golfers there's probably a very high % of players that in reality use a fake turn so the forearms DO roll. Not ideally the thing to be taught though.
jdchelsea
Head Pro
Hogans book says "every good golfer has his left wrist in this supinating position" why do you think he cupped it?
Foxholer
Blackballed
I think you are confused about what supination/pronation actually is. It doesn't actually involve the wrist at all, though position of the wrist (or palm of hand) can show it happening. It's certainly different to cupping/bowing them!. The early part of this vid has a good explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj7azIXTHIE
As stated, Hogan was 'obsessed' with avoiding hooking and had a cupped left wrist at the top of his back-swing. However, virtually his first move in the down-swing was to flatten (or even slightly bow) it. At impact, his wrist was slightly bowed - heading to flat, 'hinging' into being cupped as part of the release. I'm pretty sure that position (bowed left wrist at impact) is now out of favour with teachers.
Check this vid out - noting the 'description' of Hogan's 'supinating' term! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zguHdt_d86o
Here's a better vid of Hogan's swing. Check left wrist/hand position at start, top of backswing and impact (1:16).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=UXkYzjoO09A
Last edited:
jdchelsea
Head Pro
Was just checking because the question was at impact and I knew cupping was probably a major no no at impact and wondered how Hogan got away with it ha ha at least I know it's straight or bowed again.
.
Ps does anybody not cup their wrist in the follow thru? otherwise would it not be virtually impossible to get the club finishing behind your head?!
Foxholer
Blackballed
From JO's vid of Luke. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O7gDTVCygo
Not much cupping in that swing/follow through.
And, indeed, no rolling of wrists (pronation/supination). But that's not what THIS thread is about.
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
Crikey .. i just put the ball down & try hit it ... couldnt tell ya where the clubhead is pointing or what plane im on.. Half tempted to go out and get a club to check where its pointing .. only plane i care about is the one taking me to Lanzarote on monday
Do all these plnes & where the club is pointing change per person depending on age , height, build etc ?
Does the pic in the avatar show anything bout my swing ? prob not just asking out of curiosity , must get my swing analysed some time , it was a PW to a par 3 , 135 yards to the middle ,
Do all these plnes & where the club is pointing change per person depending on age , height, build etc ?
Does the pic in the avatar show anything bout my swing ? prob not just asking out of curiosity , must get my swing analysed some time , it was a PW to a par 3 , 135 yards to the middle ,
Last edited:
Foxholer
Blackballed
Crikey .. i just put the ball down & try hit it ... couldnt tell ya where the clubhead is pointing or what plane im on.. Half tempted to go out and get a club to check where its pointing .. only plane i care about is the one taking me to Lanzarote on monday
Do all these plnes & where the club is pointing change per person depending on age , height, build etc ?
Does the pic in the avatar show anything bout my swing ? prob not just asking out of curiosity , must get my swing analysed some time , it was a PW to a par 3 , 135 yards to the middle ,
Far and away the best thing to do imo!
If you are hitting a PW 135 in the right direction consistently, there doesn't seem a huge need to be thinking much about cupping, bowing, pronation, supination or the like.
Planes might be different for individuals. Ball flight laws are 'universal'.
Just let the swing flow!
Last edited:
jdchelsea
Head Pro
Watched 6 minutes of that I couldn't see if there was cupping or not but in this video at 14-16 seconds of Donald when the wrists first appear over his shoulder there is cupping.
Don't know I really care that much but I imagine most golfers would have a cupped left wrist in the follow through
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08rpqW2Z9Vw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Last edited:
kid2
Money List Winner
Dont do anything foolish Pal.....
If your off 7.8 then your swing cant be all that bad!
You must be doing something half right at least.
Enjoy the Hols.:thup:
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
Back to wrist cup. I think that you need to cup the left wrist so that it can hinge correctly. If you keep it flat you will reduce the range the wrists can hinge and this will reduce the power of your swing.
The attached Video from Shawn Clements shows this nicely:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFGrmHocmjM&feature=relmfu
Regarding Cochran & Stubbs and Hogans wrist roll: This was something that allowed the clubface to sit under the plane at the top of the swing. If you consider Hogan's imaginary plane of glass sitting over his shoulders and his idea of not letting the clubhead pass through it then you will have to roll the wrists clockwise at the top.. This is something that is not so popular these days as it is thought more desirable to keep the clubface square to the swingpath, reducing the manipulation to get it back square at impact. Hogan's suppination where the left palm pointed upwards through impact was something he needed to do to square the clubface after dropping it under plane at the top. It also created the big forward bow in his left wrist.
The attached Video from Shawn Clements shows this nicely:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFGrmHocmjM&feature=relmfu
Regarding Cochran & Stubbs and Hogans wrist roll: This was something that allowed the clubface to sit under the plane at the top of the swing. If you consider Hogan's imaginary plane of glass sitting over his shoulders and his idea of not letting the clubhead pass through it then you will have to roll the wrists clockwise at the top.. This is something that is not so popular these days as it is thought more desirable to keep the clubface square to the swingpath, reducing the manipulation to get it back square at impact. Hogan's suppination where the left palm pointed upwards through impact was something he needed to do to square the clubface after dropping it under plane at the top. It also created the big forward bow in his left wrist.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Interesting commentary from 2:50 to about 3:00.
As stated a couple of times before, that wasn't supination; that was bowing, pure and simple.
As stated a couple of times before, that wasn't supination; that was bowing, pure and simple.
jdchelsea
Head Pro
Interesting commentary from 2:50 to about 3:00.
As stated a couple of times before, that wasn't supination; that was bowing, pure and simple.
Am I missing something?! At 2:50 he talks about Donald recocking his wrist! What's that got to do with the price of fish?
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
Will do mate ta , we must organise a knock before the year is over , im restricted in august with other guys holidays but we get something done , Limerick only 2 hours down the motor way from me , my niece in UL .. chat after the holidays
kid2
Money List Winner
No worries.:thup:
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
Smiffy
Grand Slam Winner
Only roll I am worried about is a bacon one.
