Your Club's Course Rating & Slope Index

[duncan mackie]

This is why I like the idea of slope rating. SSS alone is a blunt instrument.
With the new WHS, we finally have a mechanism that can cope with a course that, while being easy for the scratch golfer, might be relatively harder for the bogey golfer.

Again I think here is the difference in perspective.

From my perspective, and tied in with the aspects Patrick seems to me making...

SSS is only a blunt instrument for anyone other than a scratch golfer
Slope can, and does, also accomadate those courses that are less challenging for the bogey golfer to play, but relatively more difficult for the scratch player. Edit - however the maximum slope is level ie a rating of 113, which basically means that all players playing handicaps will equal their handicap index exactly.
It's not all one way.
It is also relevant to make the point that far more scratch players have playing charecteristics in line with the course rating assumptions than bogey golfer - as clearly set out on here most forum bogey golfers below the age of 50 hit the ball further than the average scratch player, can mentally tune out water or other nasty issues and have never needed a putting lesson (let alone their superb short games based on the linear method...). These guys are going to clean up on the tougher slope rated courses and the additional strokes they will get in match play will make them invincible...😎

 

[rulefan]

It's noticeable that when I describe how course rating/slope works to fellow club members and mention the standard shot lengths for bogey players. I get a roar of "But Joe (or whoever) plays off 24 and hit his drive over 300 yards!"

 

[patricks148]

You seem to be saying that SSS is indicative of difficulty across the board, and there is no need to distinguish degree of difficulty for scratch versus bogey golfers. Is that what you're saying? Because if it is, then can I ask what you think is the purpose of slope rating - surely all you need is the CR?

so you CSS never comes out the same as the SSS then?

 

[User20204]

Does weather conditions effect said slope ? Reason I ask is we've had a fair bit of rain recently and our course is playing quite long or longer I should say and if it does effect it, how does it know the weather is rubbish

 

[Slab]

No - he is saying that a low SSS on an 18 hole course is normally indicative of a course that most golfers will find relatively easy to score on in absolute terms ie you would expect to score low numbers, regardless of par.
The exception being courses with par lower than the low SSS - which is rare, but does happen!
The purpose of the slope rating is to fine tune handicaps for any relative differences in how the course plays for different underlying capabilities in practice. Again generally, as the course rating (SSS or USGA) reduces you will tend to get a reduction in the slope rating. But it doesn't always work that way.

Sorry bit off topic, but is there a type of course where this would typically be the case?
I ask because several courses here have a par of 72 and an SSS rating 3-4 shots higher at 75/76 (but only from the back tees) other tee course rating is more in line with par or slightly below


Edit; I might be answering the question here. I see slope ratings from these tees of 145, 149 even as high as 155 (what’s the limit?)
I’ve never played from these tees so never really paid any attention to it, so I'm guessing it would be because they happen to have a set of tees that makes the course play crazy long, tough or both?

 

[rulefan]

Does weather conditions effect said slope ? Reason I ask is we've had a fair bit of rain recently and our course is playing quite long or longer I should say and if it does effect it, how does it know the weather is rubbish

No.
Courses are rated for normal mid season conditions.
With CONGU, the actual playing conditions will be reflected in the Competition Scratch Score (CSS), which is an adjustment to the SSS.
With the WHS, there is a similar function based on all scores returned on that day

 

[rulefan]

Sorry bit off topic, but is there a type of course where this would typically be the case?
I ask because several courses here have a par of 72 and an SSS rating 3-4 shots higher at 75/76 (but only from the back tees) other tee course rating is more in line with par or slightly below


Edit; I might be answering the question here. I see slope ratings from these tees of 145, 149 even as high as 155 (what’s the limit?)
I’ve never played from these tees so never really paid any attention to it, so I'm guessing it would be because they happen to have a set of tees that makes the course play crazy long, tough or both?

As has been said before, par has nothing to do with course rating and slope.
Slope simply indicates the relative difficulty playing from that set of tees for a bogey player as opposed to a scratch player.
155 is the max.

Incidentally, where have you seen a SSS of 76 or slope of 155?

Bethpage has a CR of 77.5 and slope of 155. But is 7459 yards long and only par 70

 

[cliveb]

so you CSS never comes out the same as the SSS then?

Of course it sometimes does. I've even seen it at SSS-1. You will no doubt say this shows that the SSS is reasonable. But the problem we have is that it makes it very difficult to get under CSS even when you play well. In the last three comps the number of players under CSS were 1 in 33, 2 in 36, and 5 in 71. Do those proportions seem typical to you?

 

[cliveb]

As has been said before, par has nothing to do with course rating and slope.
...
Bethpage has a CR of 77.5 and slope of 155. But is 7459 yards long and only par 70

So is there any reason why the par at Bethpage is relevant to its CR and slope?

 

[patricks148]

Of course it sometimes does. I've even seen it at SSS-1. You will no doubt say this shows that the SSS is reasonable. But the problem we have is that it makes it very difficult to get under CSS even when you play well. In the last three comps the number of players under CSS were 1 in 33, 2 in 36, and 5 in 71. Do those proportions seem typical to you?

So you are saying the the CSS only sometimes matches the SSS and the rest of the time its above?

if no one ever made buffer and the SSS was wrong then surly the club would get it re rated?

the whole Scratch golfer thing is only an set of assessments and assumptions of holes and how the holes would be played by a SG many of these would also apply to a handicap golfer. the slope and CR must still be made with the same set off assumptions

 

[Slab]

As has been said before, par has nothing to do with course rating and slope.
Slope simply indicates the relative difficulty playing from that set of tees for a bogey player as opposed to a scratch player.
155 is the max.

Incidentally, where have you seen a SSS of 76 or slope of 155?

Bethpage has a CR of 77.5 and slope of 155. But is 7459 yards long and only par 70

Anahita - SSS 76.3 Slope 139
Heritage - SSS 75 Slope 149
Ile Aux Cerfs - SSS 75 Slope 155
Tamarina – SSS 75.2 Slope 150?
(all par 72)

Stress again this is the back tees only (and never played from there, the highest Slope I think I’ve played is one tee forward at Ile Aux Cerfs & Heritage both have slope of 142 from there)
Couple of the above just exceed 7,500yrds though. Coincidentally I'm playing Heritage this weekend but probably only from the 133 slope tee which is more than plenty for me

edit: I see Tamarina just got rating redone after a few changes, until last year it was SSS 77.5 Slope 150 so I guess they made it a bit more playable!

 

[cliveb]

So you are saying the the CSS only sometimes matches the SSS and the rest of the time its above?

As a general rule CSS tends to be SSS or SSS+1. But there are plenty of occasions of CSS+2, some +3 and the odd RO. Is that typical?

if no one ever made buffer and the SSS was wrong then surly the club would get it re rated

Ironically when the course was rerated a few years ago, SSS off the yellow tees was REDUCED by one shot

 

[patricks148]

As a general rule CSS tends to be SSS or SSS+1. But there are plenty of occasions of CSS+2, some +3 and the odd RO. Is that typical?

Ironically when the course was rerated a few years ago, SSS off the yellow tees was REDUCED by one shot

the odd change in CSS happens at all clubs, we rarely go below 73 on occasion it goes to 75 and we have a few times its RO, but they would usually relate to weather conditions i would say, can't think of a single occasion ours has gone up on a sunny warm day with no wind.

when i put my handicap in the USGA calculator it came out at 5 one above what it is and in line with what our SSS at the moment with the buffer. if i were to go to your club under the new WHS i suspect i would have to play off a lower handicap, which still says to me its an easier course

 

[duncan mackie]

Of course it sometimes does. I've even seen it at SSS-1. You will no doubt say this shows that the SSS is reasonable. But the problem we have is that it makes it very difficult to get under CSS even when you play well. In the last three comps the number of players under CSS were 1 in 33, 2 in 36, and 5 in 71. Do those proportions seem typical to you?

Those proportions look entirely normal for that data.
It's an irrelevant piece of data for handicapping though!
What you need to look at is the proportion of players scoring to their buffer - very roughly the normal range for that is between 25% and 50% (at which CSS = SSS)
But all that's getting off track....your course slope rating will tell all.

 

[rulefan]

So is there any reason why the par at Bethpage is relevant to its CR and slope?

That is my point. If you read my earlier posts you will note that I have maintained that par tells you nothing about difficulty.

 

[rulefan]

As a general rule CSS tends to be SSS or SSS+1. But there are plenty of occasions of CSS+2, some +3 and the odd RO. Is that typical?

Ironically when the course was rerated a few years ago, SSS off the yellow tees was REDUCED by one shot

Probably because the rerating was done using the new USGA procedures, whilst the original SSS was done using the old English Golf Union procedures. They are slightly different in detail. But possibly a few tweaks to the course could have contributed.

 

[2blue]

Many thanks for everyone's in-put to this.... very informative ….. I think it's a bit more clear to me now.... but tomorrow it maybe different

 

[cliveb]

That is my point. If you read my earlier posts you will note that I have maintained that par tells you nothing about difficulty.

Ah right. Sorry, I misinterpreted your post, thinking that you mentioned the par at Bethpage because it is relevant. But I see now that you mentioned it as an extreme example that shows it isn't.

 

[rulefan]

 

[2blue]

I'm sure we're all interested to see how other courses compare, so if you have your details please share.
I've also attached a Slope Table but as I don't know if these are Standardised items they maybe helpful but not absolutely accurate. Perhaps others can enlighten us

View attachment 27347

Was just explaining to my playing partners today how our Ladies Red-tee is tougher than the Men's Blues. (see attachment)
Is this the same at anyone else's course?
Very tough for them it would appear.
You certainly wouldn't get many of our men happy to play every round off the Blues. In fact some won't even play on those days.
No wonder we have problems retaining lady members!! & why they do well at away courses.... strong h/caps!!