You Are The Committee

Swango1980

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I should also qualify the above, I'm not rigidly defending Player 2, as I do not know all the circumstances.

For example, had Player 2 only offered this one date, and simply refused all the other dates with no strong reason, then I would agree Player 2 is potentially more at fault and just being a pest. Maybe Player 2 is retired, and could potentially play a number of dates, but simply demanding the one date they booked should be the date played (knowing it puts Player 1 in a dilemma as they knew Player 1 would want to play the other competition). In that case, I would likely DQ Player 2.

However, if Player 2 is at work all week, holiday, or has another very good reason they cannot play these other dates, then I would DQ Player 1. It was not Player 1's fault they got Covid, but it was clear they COULD have played on the date offered, and chose to prioritise the other competition. Player 2 could have played in the weeks leading up to the deadline, but that was obviously not an option.

The 3rd option is you extend the deadline. However, as I said above, I'm not comfortable with this. Years ago our club allowed such things, and it caused huge problems. One year the final was never played at all because players in the competition just took the mick. There are some people out there that, when you give them an inch, they take a mile. They will push the conditions of comp to the limit, looking for every advantage they can, and then throw it in your face if they suffer from any action. Few and far between, but it only takes one person to do something every few years to leave a nasty taste in the mouth. So, if you have deadlines, it seems a good idea for the Committee to stick to them. The only time deadlines were extended was when the Committee led that decision, for example if terrible weather came in and course was unplayable. We didn't allow players to dictate deadlines. Imagine one player decided they didn't want to play because the weather was poor and they didn't like playing in the rain? The reason for refusal is relevant.
 

3offTheTee

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Simple solution is: The Club has a Final’s Day which is announced. If a player is unavailable for that day do not enter The Competition. There are several dates throughout the season when 1/4, semi finals have to be played. There is a reserve finals day if one player is in 2 Finals or inclement weather. End of story.
 

Swango1980

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Simple solution is: The Club has a Final’s Day which is announced. If a player is unavailable for that day do not enter The Competition. There are several dates throughout the season when 1/4, semi finals have to be played. There is a reserve finals day if one player is in 2 Finals or inclement weather. End of story.
Good idea in theory, would sort out the above problem. But, I imagine a lot of people's plans frequently change as the weeks go by. When signing into the event, I may have no firm plans for Final's Day, but those plans could clearly change as the weeks go on. And there are many reasons that would take priority over golf, especially before the semi is played and I'm not even sure I'd be involved in Final's Day. So, that would most likely result in years in which there is no champion, or having to ask players defeated in earlier rounds to contend for the final, which in itself rubs the shine of it. So, probably creates bigger problems than the above.

If clubs gave a long enough window to play the final, you'd like to think most of the time there'd be no problem. Not sure when their prize giving is (ours was November), but arguably you could have had the semi deadline end of August (I'm assuming that was when it was), then the final deadline end of October. Just give a ridiculously long window for the most prestigious event. Better to do that, than set a deadline at end of September but then saying you can play in October if you wish. Makes it easier to cope with issues like illness, injury, holidays. If there is an issue where a player will not be available until the very end of the window, it gives the other player enough time to approach Committee if it is likely to be an issue for them.
 

wjemather

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Really!? So, would it have been OK then, if Player 2 offered Player 1 another 2 dates when they had Covid? Then, on a technicality Player 2 had offered 3 dates and suddenly they would be right to complain that Player 1 could not play?

In all honesty, I cannot imagine many Committees agreeing that the deadline of match play event should be extended, because one Player could not make the deadline as they wanted to watch TV that day. The fact that Player 2 only offered one date was because he knew that Player 1 was unable to play due to illness for the weeks leading up to the deadline. How can you accuse Player 2 of being equally at fault? If Player 1 decided to go on holiday for a month, and was only available on deadline day (and Player 2 was not), would Player 2 be equally at fault?
The point is that no committee that values it's own time and sanity is going to want to know the reasons, however serious or trivial (or fictional), why people can't play on certain dates or get involved in finger pointing and apportioning blame. Sensible ToC are written with this in mind and usually both parties are responsible for arranging matches unless there is a "finals day. If one party has circumstances that prevent them from playing within a reasonable timeframe, they should do the decent thing and concede.
 

wjemather

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If clubs gave a long enough window to play the final, you'd like to think most of the time there'd be no problem. Not sure when their prize giving is (ours was November), but arguably you could have had the semi deadline end of August (I'm assuming that was when it was), then the final deadline end of October. Just give a ridiculously long window for the most prestigious event. Better to do that, than set a deadline at end of September but then saying you can play in October if you wish. Makes it easier to cope with issues like illness, injury, holidays. If there is an issue where a player will not be available until the very end of the window, it gives the other player enough time to approach Committee if it is likely to be an issue for them.
The reason for not doing as you suggest is simple - too many people will always leave it until the end of the window(s) to even think about arranging matches, so any issues will not become apparent until it's too late; as such, sensibly, the final window is commonly set with plenty of leeway for extension.
 

GB72

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Simple solution is to lock Player 1 and Player 2 in the committee room one evening and let them out when they have agreed a date. Joking aside, surely the best thing is for player 1 and player 2 to agree the soonest possible date and approach the committee for consent to play the final on that date. Either party fails to play on that date, forfeit.
 

Swango1980

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The point is that no committee that values it's own time and sanity is going to want to know the reasons, however serious or trivial (or fictional), why people can't play on certain dates or get involved in finger pointing and apportioning blame. Sensible ToC are written with this in mind and usually both parties are responsible for arranging matches unless there is a "finals day. If one party has circumstances that prevent them from playing within a reasonable timeframe, they should do the decent thing and concede.
Agreed, but it appears these do not exist, otherwise I'd imagine the question in the OP would be irrelevant. The ToC would deal with it. Also, no one has conceded, so the Committee cannot just shut their eyes and hope the problem goes away. Therefore, they need to get involved, and hearing both sides of the story would seem the right thing to do. They can then decide themselves what is the best way forward, and if either player is more at "fault" than the other. Just in the same way a Committee has to decide what a valid reason is for a No Return, sometimes Committees need to understand the reason behind player actions.
 

Swango1980

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The reason for not doing as you suggest is simple - too many people will always leave it until the end of the window(s) to even think about arranging matches, so any issues will not become apparent until it's too late; as such, sensibly, the final window is commonly set with plenty of leeway for extension.
I agree that players may leave it to the end of the window, but they can leave it to the end of the window no matter what size that window is. But, there is little point giving them a window in the first place, then saying they can play after the window you defined. Just make the original window bigger then.

If you have a large window, and both players leave it until the end and then there are issues, they are both at fault. If only one player leaves it to the end of the window, and the other wants to play earlier and offers 3 earlier dates, then they can at least approach the Committee well before the deadline to indicate there could be an issue. The larger window simply gives much more flexibility to, firstly avoid the above problem, and secondly to potentially deal with it early enough if it arises
 

chellie

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Simple solution is: The Club has a Final’s Day which is announced. If a player is unavailable for that day do not enter The Competition. There are several dates throughout the season when 1/4, semi finals have to be played. There is a reserve finals day if one player is in 2 Finals or inclement weather. End of story.

This is how it is at ours. Every round of the draw has a deadline date. Wouldn't dream of entering a matchplay competition if I wasn't prepared to keep the finals date free. For most clubs finals day is a big thing.
 

fundy

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This is how it is at ours. Every round of the draw has a deadline date. Wouldn't dream of entering a matchplay competition if I wasn't prepared to keep the finals date free. For most clubs finals day is a big thing.

Do most clubs have a finals day? Get a feeling this may be more prevalent in the northern half of the country? Been a member at several clubs, none have had a finals day just play the matchplays throughout the season with deadline dates. Maybe ive just been "unlucky" with the clubs ive been at
 

3offTheTee

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Good idea in theory, would sort out the above problem. But, I imagine a lot of people's plans frequently change as the weeks go by. When signing into the event, I may have no firm plans for Final's Day, but those plans could clearly change as the weeks go on. And there are many reasons that would take priority over golf, especially before the semi is played and I'm not even sure I'd be involved in Final's Day. So, that would most likely result in years in which there is no champion, or having to ask players defeated in earlier rounds to contend for the final, which in itself rubs the shine of it. So, probably creates bigger problems than the above.

If clubs gave a long enough window to play the final, you'd like to think most of the time there'd be no problem. Not sure when their prize giving is (ours was November), but arguably you could have had the semi deadline end of August (I'm assuming that was when it was), then the final deadline end of October. Just give a ridiculously long window for the most prestigious event. Better to do that, than set a deadline at end of September but then saying you can play in October if you wish. Makes it easier to cope with issues like illness, injury, holidays. If there is an issue where a player will not be available until the very end of the window, it gives the other player enough time to approach Committee if it is likely to be an issue for them.
Do not think it is theory what I said. It should be in TOC. People then know when Final’s Day is. If Something comes up the match is forfeited. Surely The Handicap Committee have enough to undertake and competitors should take some responsibility.
 

chellie

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Do most clubs have a finals day? Get a feeling this may be more prevalent in the northern half of the country? Been a member at several clubs, none have had a finals day just play the matchplays throughout the season with deadline dates. Maybe ive just been "unlucky" with the clubs ive been at
Only club I've ever been a member of so can't speak for others. I've been in two final days. Was on the winning side on both occasions. The Captains are there and people will walk the course following the matches. It's just a special day imo.
 

Captainron

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Lets be honest. If any of us were player 1, we would have thought to ourselves... Oh hang on. Fred said he could do X date for the final! Here I am wanting to play a comp on that same date. Why don't I play the matchplay final instead of this comp?

We would at least have contacted them to discuss.

BUT in reality....

Get them both on a call or in the office and get a date and time sorted. Make them aware of thier obligations and finalise it!
 

Swango1980

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Do not think it is theory what I said. It should be in TOC. People then know when Final’s Day is. If Something comes up the match is forfeited. Surely The Handicap Committee have enough to undertake and competitors should take some responsibility.
No argument with that. I was just saying that there will be people that will enter, knowing they have no plans for Finals Day. 6-8 months later, when Final's Day arrives, they now have plans, and just so happened to get all the way through to the final. Just felt it vastly increases the odds that someone would not be available to play in the final, compared to the alternative where you give the finalists a month to play the match
 
Thread starter #55

Crazyface

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Not sure i follow... Why is it disgusting from Player 1 and it seems its not disgusting from Player 2 ?

'allowed to recover' :unsure:
Did Player 2 didn't really expect Player 1 to play while they had covid? (had Player 1 been overseas would you say; Player 2 'allowed' Player 1 to go on holiday)
Isn't this why so many MP comps have from/to date windows for ties to be completed rather than specific days/dates, because all players have outside lives)

Didn't Player 2 also decline a date offered by Player 1 & that date was within the deadline? (also in preference for Player 2 to do something else)
The "something else" from Player 2 was working and he could not get out of it.
 

GB72

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Out of interest, are both players looking for a date to play and an extension or is either player asking for or looking for a forfit.
 

Slab

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Sounds like the solution could've been for Player 2 to play in the comp that Player 1 played in (taking place on the date Player 2 offered so we know he's free) and committee would just put them in same group and they could do their MP as well as play in the other comp

Everyone's a winner (except the loser)
 

fundy

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Only club I've ever been a member of so can't speak for others. I've been in two final days. Was on the winning side on both occasions. The Captains are there and people will walk the course following the matches. It's just a special day imo.

sorry, misinterpreted your comment that for most clubs finals day is a big thing, definitely the exception not the norm down here
 

Swango1980

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Sounds like the solution could've been for Player 2 to play in the comp that Player 1 played in (taking place on the date Player 2 offered so we know he's free) and committee would just put them in same group and they could do their MP as well as play in the other comp

Everyone's a winner (except the loser)
Depends on whether the club would allow it. Although the rules no longer strictly forbid this, they strongly recommend not to mix both formats, as the rules for both are different. Also, might be a bit annoying for the 3rd person in the group if they're playing in a 3 ball, maybe.
 
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