World Handicap System

[Swango1980]

Got to agree with Ger on this (as I've already said), this is not a WHS issue, it's purely on your club's committee handling it incorrectly. As I said above, GP scores are now much easier, and less work for the H'Cap guy at the club *if* doing it correctly. Again, it's about the only thing that's improved under WHS.

It is, if you are happy to rely on the tech and not bother chasing No Returns. From a previous post by yourself (maybe not on this thread) you admitted that there was no need to chase players for No Returns, and just let the system (in Scotland) apply an automatic penalty score. However, if you were in England, then you'd soon find out that you'd need to chase up these players every time, then determine an appropriate penalty score if you cannot get their score by other means. You'd then be less inclined to say the practical control of the system is easier now than it was before.

 

[ger147]

It is, if you are happy to rely on the tech and not bother chasing No Returns. From a previous post by yourself (maybe not on this thread) you admitted that there was no need to chase players for No Returns, and just let the system (in Scotland) apply an automatic penalty score. However, if you were in England, then you'd soon find out that you'd need to chase up these players every time, then determine an appropriate penalty score if you cannot get their score by other means. You'd then be less inclined to say the practical control of the system is easier now than it was before.

Isn't the handicap secretary at your current club based in England? Is he/she chasing up NR's? Didn't you say earlier that they aren't bothering with pre-registration and just adding every score they can find to the system? So no such thing as a general play NR at your own club in England?

So maybe not every handicap secretary in England is swamped dealing with NR's of general play rounds...

 

[Deleted member 30522]

It is, if you are happy to rely on the tech and not bother chasing No Returns. From a previous post by yourself (maybe not on this thread) you admitted that there was no need to chase players for No Returns, and just let the system (in Scotland) apply an automatic penalty score. However, if you were in England, then you'd soon find out that you'd need to chase up these players every time, then determine an appropriate penalty score if you cannot get their score by other means. You'd then be less inclined to say the practical control of the system is easier now than it was before.

OK, it's fairly simple, most scores *won't* be NRs, therefore no chasing required. Most scores will be entered automatically, so nobody contacting you to say they will post a score and keeping a record of that, and nobody emailing you their scorecard afterwards to then have you upload it. Workload is way down, regardless of differences between Scotland & England (as far as this single issue goes)

 

[Swango1980]

Isn't the handicap secretary at your current club based in England? Is he/she chasing up NR's? Didn't you say earlier that they aren't bothering with pre-registration and just adding every score they can find to the system? So no such thing as a general play NR at your own club in England?

So maybe not every handicap secretary in England is swamped dealing with NR's of general play rounds...

Yes. And the only reason they are not swamped is that they are not administering handicaps as they should be (and probably do not have the time to do all the chasing, so I've no ill feeling towards the volunteer(s))

So, if that is the solution to not getting bogged down with General Play rounds, then God Save us. Might as well rip up the WHS manual...

 

[ger147]

...they are not administering handicaps as they should be...

Finally we agree on the issue ??

 

[Swango1980]

OK, it's fairly simple, most scores *won't* be NRs, therefore no chasing required. Most scores will be entered automatically, so nobody contacting you to say they will post a score and keeping a record of that, and nobody emailing you their scorecard afterwards to then have you upload it. Workload is way down, regardless of differences between Scotland & England (as far as this single issue goes)

Doesn't really matter if most scores are entered automatically. It is still a pain in the backside having to chase half a dozen people weekly (my experience, I guess other clubs may need to chase more, some less).

It is interesting this is even a debate. I am not hypothesising (as in pre WHS). I am speaking from my own experience. As a handicap secretary myself, tracking general play rounds significantly increased my workload compared to before WHS. That included me entering player scores directly from cards pre-WHS (although this could be done on the PSI screen by players and verified by handicap committee later). Post WHS, I didn't rely on the software to decide what to do with NRs, as it requires a human decision. Sure, it would have been very easy if I pretty much ignored everything and assumed the technology is fool proof. But, that would be burying my head in the sand.

Following my move to another club, I have come across other significant issues with their application of WHS. I have also heard from the secretary of another big club in the county who have had big issues with WHS.

I have no doubt that, for most of those that comment in this forum, you have some of the best implantations of WHS in Britain, as you are all keen and knowledgeable with golf related matters. I'm sure if I visited your club, I'd be impressed at how you keep a track on incoming scores and how you communicate with your members. No doubt some of you are even lucky enough to spare the time to keep on top of it regularly. However, there are about half a dozen to a dozen names that regularly comment on here. I think there are over 2,500 clubs in Britain. So, the question is, how are the other 2,480ish clubs getting on. From my experience, not all as well as you guys. And, having directly dealt with WHS, I have little criticism for the volunteers / staff who are responsible for it.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Doesn't really matter if most scores are entered automatically. It is still a pain in the backside having to chase half a dozen people weekly (my experience, I guess other clubs may need to chase more, some less).

It is interesting this is even a debate. I am not hypothesising (as in pre WHS). I am speaking from my own experience. As a handicap secretary myself, tracking general play rounds significantly increased my workload compared to before WHS. That included me entering player scores directly from cards pre-WHS (although this could be done on the PSI screen by players and verified by handicap committee later). Post WHS, I didn't rely on the software to decide what to do with NRs, as it requires a human decision. Sure, it would have been very easy if I pretty much ignored everything and assumed the technology is fool proof. But, that would be burying my head in the sand.

Following my move to another club, I have come across other significant issues with their application of WHS. I have also heard from the secretary of another big club in the county who have had big issues with WHS.

I have no doubt that, for most of those that comment in this forum, you have some of the best implantations of WHS in Britain, as you are all keen and knowledgeable with golf related matters. I'm sure if I visited your club, I'd be impressed at how you keep a track on incoming scores and how you communicate with your members. No doubt some of you are even lucky enough to spare the time to keep on top of it regularly. However, there are about half a dozen to a dozen names that regularly comment on here. I think there are over 2,500 clubs in Britain. So, the question is, how are the other 2,480ish clubs getting on. From my experience, not all as well as you guys. And, having directly dealt with WHS, I have little criticism for the volunteers / staff who are responsible for it.

How do you know? You've moved clubs and are not a h'cap sec, and as it's only just arrived I'm assuming you've not used it at all?

I simply can't fathom your arithmetic, you had to have two contacts with every player prior to WHS, one them telling you they were playing, the other you uploading their scorecard. Now, you only have to chase the small percentage who don't fill in a card, everything else is automated. That is LESS, it's not MORE.

 

[Swango1980]

How do you know? You've moved clubs and are not a h'cap sec, and as it's only just arrived I'm assuming you've not used it at all?

I simply can't fathom your arithmetic, you had to have two contacts with every player prior to WHS, one them telling you they were playing, the other you uploading their scorecard. Now, you only have to chase the small percentage who don't fill in a card, everything else is automated. That is LESS, it's not MORE.

WHS arrived in November 2020. I was handicap secretary until August 2021. 9 months as handicap secretary, with pretty much the entire 2021 season up to this month in that role. I can assure you, I have had plenty of time to see how the system is used up to this point.

 

[rulefan]

I have had plenty of time to see how the system is used up to this point.

Are you talking about WHS itself, the particular software front end (did SG commission the front end used in Scotland?), the particular app (or apps) available in Scotland or the whole shooting match?

 

[Swango1980]

Are you talking about WHS itself, the particular software front end (did SG commission the front end used in Scotland?), the particular app (or apps) available in Scotland or the whole shooting match?

I am pretty sure you know I am not in Scotland?

 

[Colin L]

OK, it's fairly simple, most scores *won't* be NRs, therefore no chasing required. Most scores will be entered automatically, so nobody contacting you to say they will post a score and keeping a record of that, and nobody emailing you their scorecard afterwards to then have you upload it. Workload is way down, regardless of differences between Scotland & England (as far as this single issue goes)

I'm only aware of one difference between the other CONGU countries and Scotland whereby Scotland is correctly using the exact value of the course handicap in calculations i.e rounding up ro or down only once at the end whereas the others use the rounded course handicap and round up or down again at the end. It has absolutely no effect on the calculation of handicap indexes and doesn't in any way damage the universality of the system. All it means is that the playing handicaps of a few players in a competition on a Scottish course could be one stroke different from what they would be in an equivalent competition on a course with the same slope rating in England, Wales or Ireland. There's nothing tp be made of that - other than perhaps our exhibiting a smug pride in our mathematical purity. But you'd be eaten alive if you tried that on here.

What other differences have I missed?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Bloke I’m playing in the next round of one of our knockouts hasn’t put a card in for two months (I’ve not done loads but have put in on average one a week). How can a H/I reflect a players average ability if he’s not putting in cards. Of course I get that he might not have been able to play much or indeed at all, and so his golf might be very rusty - but if I was of a suspicious mind I could imagine a bit of handicap protection going on. Does WHS not really require regular submission of ‘cards’ for it to work well and fairly?

(I note that we played each other earlier this year in another comp - that he won the match and seemed to play way better than his H/I might point to the source of my little grumble ??)

Anyway. It’s just a golf match and the guys a decent guy, so I’ll enjoy it whatever.

 

[Swango1980]

I'm only aware of one difference between the other CONGU countries and Scotland whereby Scotland is correctly using the exact value of the course handicap in calculations i.e rounding up ro or down only once at the end whereas the others use the rounded course handicap and round up or down again at the end. It has absolutely no effect on the calculation of handicap indexes and doesn't in any way damage the universality of the system. All it means is that the playing handicaps of a few players in a competition on a Scottish course could be one stroke different from what they would be in an equivalent competition on a course with the same slope rating in England, Wales or Ireland. There's nothing tp be made of that - other than perhaps our exhibiting a smug pride in our mathematical purity. But you'd be eaten alive if you tried that on here.

What other differences have I missed?

Apparently the software in Scotland automatically applies a very high penalty score for any no returns (contrary to WHS Guidance). The software in England does not, and leaves it to handicap committee to decide the appropriate penalty score.

I think this is what he refers to. He seems to think this is much better in Scotland, because he does not have to chase players who no return, the system takes care of it.

 

[D-S]

Bloke I’m playing in the next round of one of our knockouts hasn’t put a card in for two months (I’ve not done loads but have put in on average one a week). How can a H/I reflect a players average ability if he’s not putting in cards. Of course I get that he might not have been able to play much or indeed at all, and so his golf might be very rusty - but if I was of a suspicious mind I could imagine a bit of handicap protection going on. Does WHS not really require regular submission of ‘cards’ for it to work well and fairly?
.

Maybe almost all the golf he plays is better ball or matchplay, this is the case for a lot of golfers. There is no compunction to hand in cards regularly, especially if singles strokeplay rounds do not form a regular part of your golf.

 

[Swango1980]

Bloke I’m playing in the next round of one of our knockouts hasn’t put a card in for two months (I’ve not done loads but have put in on average one a week). How can a H/I reflect a players average ability if he’s not putting in cards. Of course I get that he might not have been able to play much or indeed at all, and so his golf might be very rusty - but if I was of a suspicious mind I could imagine a bit of handicap protection going on. Does WHS not really require regular submission of ‘cards’ for it to work well and fairly?

(I note that we played each other earlier this year in another comp - that he won the match and seemed to play way better than his H/I might point to the source of my little grumble ??)

Anyway. It’s just a golf match and the guys a decent guy, so I’ll enjoy it whatever.

No different to handicaps before WHS really. In fact, pre WHS it would still be true the more regularly a player puts in cards, the better.

But, pre WHS the only limitation was to get 3 cards in a year, so 2 months would still not be an issue. With WHS, his handicap will still be OK even if no scores have been entered in 2 years.

Comp secs need to set conditions of entry if they want competitors to have more recent scores on their record. But I am sure most will go back a year, not a short period like 2 months.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

WHS arrived in November 2020. I was handicap secretary until August 2021. 9 months as handicap secretary, with pretty much the entire 2021 season up to this month in that role. I can assure you, I have had plenty of time to see how the system is used up to this point.

It's August 2021 now, and yes WHS did arrive in Nov 2020, presumably you joined your new club in the new year? I rather doubt you were flooded with GP scores in that couple of winter months were you?

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Bloke I’m playing in the next round of one of our knockouts hasn’t put a card in for two months (I’ve not done loads but have put in on average one a week). How can a H/I reflect a players average ability if he’s not putting in cards. Of course I get that he might not have been able to play much or indeed at all, and so his golf might be very rusty - but if I was of a suspicious mind I could imagine a bit of handicap protection going on. Does WHS not really require regular submission of ‘cards’ for it to work well and fairly?

(I note that we played each other earlier this year in another comp - that he won the match and seemed to play way better than his H/I might point to the source of my little grumble ??)

Anyway. It’s just a golf match and the guys a decent guy, so I’ll enjoy it whatever.

You'd be worried about me then, I almost never play with anyone in a bounce game, I can be at the course for 4.30, so I like to go out and whip round for a practice on my own.

It's simply an alien concept in the UK to hand in GP scores, and if it ever catches on it will be a long time. We have under 1/3 or our total membership with a handicap at all, never mind the many who almost never play a medal. It's another sign of how out of touch the governing bodies are that they thought folks were screaming out for this, all they've done is piss off existing players

 

[Swango1980]

It's August 2021 now, and yes WHS did arrive in Nov 2020, presumably you joined your new club in the new year? I rather doubt you were flooded with GP scores in that couple of winter months were you?

No, I joined my new club 2 weeks ago. Did you miss the part that said "I was handicap secretary until August 2021"?

 

[nickjdavis]

It's simply an alien concept in the UK to hand in GP scores, and if it ever catches on it will be a long time. It's another sign of how out of touch the governing bodies are that they thought folks were screaming out for this, all they've done is piss off existing players

Whilst I agree that folks were not previously "screaming out for this" (in fact quite the opposite) and perhaps that authorities were a bit out of touch in this regard, now that the facility to record GP scores is available with nice snazzy apps by which to submit scores, it is being heartily embraced by many people and is (certainly from what I can see at my club) growing in popularity.

One of the key things that I think might be contributing to this is that a players handicap index is far more "live" than it ever was under the old Congu supplementary scores process, in that a player might have to wait a couple of days before his card was processed to see his "new" handicap. Now, you upload a score via an App and it tells you pretty much instantaneously what your new index will be.....its almost like a kid knowing he is going to get a present and not being able to wait to unwrap it.

 

[D-S]

Whilst I agree that folks were not previously "screaming out for this" (in fact quite the opposite) and perhaps that authorities were a bit out of touch in this regard, now that the facility to record GP scores is available with nice snazzy apps by which to submit scores, it is being heartily embraced by many people and is (certainly from what I can see at my club) growing in popularity.

One of the key things that I think might be contributing to this is that a players handicap index is far more "live" than it ever was under the old Congu supplementary scores process, in that a player might have to wait a couple of days before his card was processed to see his "new" handicap. Now, you upload a score via an App and it tells you pretty much instantaneously what your new index will be.....its almost like a kid knowing he is going to get a present and not being able to wait to unwrap it.

Wasn’t it sort of instantaneous under the old system as you had to cut yourself immediately if you put in a card that reduced your handicap? Also 9 times out of 10 you knew that after a bad round you were going up 0.1 which wasn’t difficult maths to do?