World Handicap System

[Deleted member 15344]

Because, there was a box that said "General Play Cards". I felt it appropriate to submit physical cards to complete the process, just in case they wish to file them, or check them at a later date to ensure my scores are legit. Also, the card was signed. HDID does not allow true marker verification of scores, so I wanted to ensure I had all bases covered.

Why not use EG App ? That covers every base and no need for any physical score cards

in regards the poor processes from the club - it’s up to you if you want to go to the county or just have to deal with it

 

[ger147]

I filled in the card. As en ex handicap sec, I know exactly what you mean. So I put full names on the card, and wrote very clearly, so that if they wanted to verify any of my scores they know who I was playing with. I never thought for a second they'd enter those players into the handicap system. I only found out when one of them text me and accused my of entering his scores behind his back (which of course is impossible, as I cannot log in as him). This is when I checked and noticed all players were entered, and my score appeared twice.

Then you now know not to mark the names and scores of your playing partners on your own general play cards from now on. Lesser of 2 evils based on what your current club handicap committee do with the data if you do.

 

[Swango1980]

Why not use EG App ? That covers every base and no need for any physical score cards

in regards the poor processes from the club - it’s up to you if you want to go to the county or just have to deal with it

Could do. Although, I typically use HDID because I can pre-register before getting to the club. It means slightly less faffing around on the tee trying to pre-register, especially if I am rushing to get to the tee time after work. I also turn my phone off when playing golf, mainly because I put my GPS watch on for Strava, and I can turn off the annoying vibrations every time a notification comes through on my phone. I'm also aware of some people that have internet connection issues at some clubs. Not sure if that would apply at my new club, though it is in the middle of nowhere.

Either way, the authorities have given us MyEG or HDID to use, so theoretically it shouldn't matter which one is used. It just caught me off guard that the club would enter any scores they see, it was simply an action I was not anticipating. Having randomly checked the records of other members at the club, I can see this is by no means an isolated incident either.

Your last point is correct. However, it is ultimately not just me that needs to deal with it. If you didn't get a spot in an elite amateur comp because it went to someone who chooses to submit only good scores, then it impacts you. If you lose out in a comp because the player who won happened to submit his poor scores from roll ups, it impacts you. I guess this sort of thing will become more apparent, and hopefully more measures put in place to help committees deal with it (for example, being able to highlight general play rounds versus competitive rounds, and an algorithm to help identify any patterns to flag to Committee)

 

[Swango1980]

Then you now know not to mark the names and scores of your playing partners on your own general play cards from now on. Lesser of 2 evils based on what your current club handicap committee do with the data if you do.

Of course, I will certainly make it clear on the card in future, that the score has been entered, and cross out other player names. But, as said in my previous post this seems to have happened on numerous occasions with others, so whatever I do, this does not help the other 700+ members who are not aware of this. And, if any of them in any way wish to manipulate their handicap upwards or downwards, they can easily take advantage of it.

 

[ger147]

Of course, I will certainly make it clear on the card in future, that the score has been entered, and cross out other player names. But, as said in my previous post this seems to have happened on numerous occasions with others, so whatever I do, this does not help the other 700+ members who are not aware of this. And, if any of them in any way wish to manipulate their handicap upwards or downwards, they can easily take advantage of it.

Why are their names and scores on your general play card in the first place? If it's not a comp or a general play round, there is no need for the names and scores to be on your card.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

One other thing about score without cards is that when I check them we are running at over 10 percent of the score enter online are wrong. From talking to players they don't regard GP rounds as important as competition rounds so without the cards there is no way to check. The MEG app at least requires Attestation.

 

[nickjdavis]

Also, even if a player has pre-registered he can subsequently delete his "scoring intent" from within the app. As far as I am aware there is no "automatic flag" that highlights to a committee when a player has deleted his intention to submit a score....the committee must pro-actively interrogate the WHS system and run the report that tells them about deleted score intents.

This is incorrect, prior to confirming you are about to start a GP score, the App warns you this can't be undone, there is no facility to cancel.

OH FFS fella....I wouldn't write such stuff if I did not know it to be true. You need to remember that we are not all in Scotland. The MyEG app does not "warn you that it cannot be undone"....and you can delete a round simply by swiping left or right in the scorecard section of the MyEG app. It asks you to confirm the reason that you deleted your round....but you don't actually have to enter one.

 

[Swango1980]

Why are their names and scores on your general play card in the first place? If it's not a comp or a general play round, there is no need for the names and scores to be on your card.

As said, so that if anything needs to be queried, it is clear who I was playing with.

I also used the card to track all our scores, just so everyone knows how they are doing in the round

 

[ger147]

As said, so that if anything needs to be queried, it is clear who I was playing with.

I also used the card to track all our scores, just so everyone knows how they are doing in the round

You can hand in a clean card without their scores on it which your marker can sign and have their name printed on. There is no need for the other players scores from a friendly knock to appear on your own general play card that is submitted for handicap purposes, especially as you know what your current handicap committee is going to do with the scores.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

OH FFS fella....I wouldn't write such stuff if I did not know it to be true. You need to remember that we are not all in Scotland. The MyEG app does not "warn you that it cannot be undone"....and you can delete a round simply by swiping left or right in the scorecard section of the MyEG app. It asks you to confirm the reason that you deleted your round....but you don't actually have to enter one.

In the history of forums you're correct, nobody ever writes stuff that is incorrect

 

[Swango1980]

You can hand in a clean card without their scores on it which your marker can sign and have their name printed on. There is no need for the other players scores from a friendly knock to appear on your own general play card that is submitted for handicap purposes, especially as you know what your current handicap committee is going to do with the scores.

1. I didn't know what the Committee would do with the scores. Why would I think they'd enter the scores when players had not preregistered? Even if I handed in a card where none of us pre-registered at all, I would have expected Committee to not enter the scores, and look to remind us they should have been pre-registered
2. What is wrong with having other scores on the card anyway? It doesn't say much about the system if it falls apart because there is other supplementary info on the card that is not strictly required.

 

[ger147]

1. I didn't know what the Committee would do with the scores. Why would I think they'd enter the scores when players had not preregistered? Even if I handed in a card where none of us pre-registered at all, I would have expected Committee to not enter the scores, and look to remind us they should have been pre-registered
2. What is wrong with having other scores on the card anyway? It doesn't say much about the system if it falls apart because there is other supplementary info on the card that is not strictly required.

1) You do now so you know what to do from now on ??

2) The issue is 100% on whoever is collecting the GP cards from your handicap committee and entering the scores, so best avoided in the meantime while the issue is addressed.

 

[Swango1980]

1) You do now so you know what to do from now on ??

2) The issue is 100% on whoever is collecting the GP cards from your handicap committee and entering the scores, so best avoided in the meantime while the issue is addressed.

Agree with both points. But just because I have this knowledge, it is not so useful to the other 700+ members, and any that join in the future, who may come across the same issue. And, as I've also said, some can take advantage of this, including the chap that only wishes to get his handicap as low as possible by choosing which scores to submit.

So, generally, it is clear the system is very difficult for clubs to manage. I've experienced this directly in my role as handicap secretary (even if you exclude all the other work that was required in leaning about WHS, communicating to members and the bugs within the software). Now that I am at another club, there is clearly a whole host of other issues. And, speaking to the secretary at another very big club in the county, he told me their handicap committee provided virtually no communication on WHS to members over the last few years. In fact, one chap has been able to get down to an Index of 1, all suspiciously from general play golf.

It is all well and good England Golf getting very enthusiastic about WHS and how it practically works. It is all well and good us in this forum preaching how it works, given we are the sort of people who are most likely to educate ourselves on all things golf, hence being in these forums. I'd say most committee members (let alone regular golfers) wouldn't dream of coming into a forum, a step too far. More likely to pick things up as they go along and hope the tech takes care of most things. Do the Counties plan to audit all clubs at some point to see how they implement WHS, and then hopefully that will give them a list of things that may be going wrong, and finding ways to make things easier for players and committees?

 

[ger147]

Agree with both points. But just because I have this knowledge, it is not so useful to the other 700+ members, and any that join in the future, who may come across the same issue. And, as I've also said, some can take advantage of this, including the chap that only wishes to get his handicap as low as possible by choosing which scores to submit.

So, generally, it is clear the system is very difficult for clubs to manage. I've experienced this directly in my role as handicap secretary (even if you exclude all the other work that was required in leaning about WHS, communicating to members and the bugs within the software). Now that I am at another club, there is clearly a whole host of other issues. And, speaking to the secretary at another very big club in the county, he told me their handicap committee provided virtually no communication on WHS to members over the last few years. In fact, one chap has been able to get down to an Index of 1, all suspiciously from general play golf.

It is all well and good England Golf getting very enthusiastic about WHS and how it practically works. It is all well and good us in this forum preaching how it works, given we are the sort of people who are most likely to educate ourselves on all things golf, hence being in these forums. I'd say most committee members (let alone regular golfers) wouldn't dream of coming into a forum, a step too far. More likely to pick things up as they go along and hope the tech takes care of most things. Do the Counties plan to audit all clubs at some point to see how they implement WHS, and then hopefully that will give them a list of things that may be going wrong, and finding ways to make things easier for players and committees?

I fundamentally disagree with your point that this has anything whatsoever to do with the WHS, it's 100% on your current club's committee and their own process for handling general play cards.

 

[Rlburnside]

I hope I answered your first bit in my previous post. I appreciate some clubs do not require physical cards, but others will like them to ensure they are happy the scores are correct (not least, because there are quite a few occasions I've been able to check in my previous duties as handicap sec, players actually enter the wrong scores electronically)

There should be a penalty for a No Return in England, but it is up to the Committee to notice there has been a No Return and then act accordingly. An automatic penalty does not meet the requirements of WHS, as the penalty score could be one of 3 things depending on the situation (4 things if you include no penalty score as the NR was for a valid reason). Furthermore, as mentioned, players are able to sign in after the round and enter score after using HDID, so it is difficult to stop this unless you know the tee times each player had, and are willing to check in detail.

I don’t understand the logic if the automatic penalty doesn’t meet the requirements of whs how is it applicable in Scotland.

Perhaps England should follow Scotland’s lead ?

 

[Swango1980]

I fundamentally disagree with your point that this has anything whatsoever to do with the WHS, it's 100% on your current club's committee and their own process for handling general play cards.

I guess it is more difficult for Committees because of global warming then . Maybe WHS is the perfect handicap system when it can be practically implemented to the letter. Theory and practice are two different beasts.

 

[Swango1980]

I don’t understand the logic if the automatic penalty doesn’t meet the requirements of whs how is it applicable in Scotland.

Perhaps England should follow Scotland’s lead ?

It appears the tech in Scotland is acting outside the guidance of the WHS manual. In relation to penalty scores, I believe the guidance in Scotland and England is the same? And, I do not believe it is written anywhere in WHS that a very high penalty score is applied to all No Returns, which is being done automatically in Scotland. In fact, this only applies when a player is purposely trying to keep a low handicap, which I'd imagine is less frequent (although, coincidentally, would be perfect in my example from the other day, if the guy had bothered signing in in the 1st place)

 

[ger147]

I guess it is more difficult for Committees because of global warming then . Maybe WHS is the perfect handicap system when it can be practically implemented to the letter. Theory and practice are two different beasts.

The issue you described above re. general play cards at your new club is an issue because of your club's handicap committee, not WHS.

 

[nickjdavis]

In the history of forums you're correct, nobody ever writes stuff that is incorrect

This is true...however...when I tend to make definitive statements...I've usually researched and tested beforehand to make sure what I write is correct so as not to misinform anyone.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

I fundamentally disagree with your point that this has anything whatsoever to do with the WHS, it's 100% on your current club's committee and their own process for handling general play cards.

I guess it is more difficult for Committees because of global warming then . Maybe WHS is the perfect handicap system when it can be practically implemented to the letter. Theory and practice are two different beasts.

Got to agree with Ger on this (as I've already said), this is not a WHS issue, it's purely on your club's committee handling it incorrectly. As I said above, GP scores are now much easier, and less work for the H'Cap guy at the club *if* doing it correctly. Again, it's about the only thing that's improved under WHS.