World Handicap System

[Old Skier]

That is a good way for a member to enhance their reputation at a club.

However, I suspect there are going to be issues down the road that will need to be dealt with. Because there is no doubt in my mind the handicap system has never been so easy to manipulate, and so hard for Committee members to keep under control.

Yes, handicap manipulation has been going on for years. So, it appears they have designed a system that makes it easier than ever to manipulate.

Whats a cope out is when you know blatant disregard of things are going on and ignoring it. Cheats and committees not carrying out their duties need calling out, it's the only way things can improve.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

No, howdidido allows a player to sign in and enter score immediately afterwards. However, even if it didn't, the club are entering any score they see on a card onto a player's record, whether they pre-register or not (so issue is partly tech, partly education).

Regarding the second point, there will be less issues if Committees check every score coming in. It does not take a minute. When I was handicap sec, it could take an hour or 2 to go through all submitted scores (if it was done a couple of times per week), checking pre-registration and then chasing No Returns. Then, going back and dealing with all replies and non replies, before deciding how to apply penalty scores. This is the issue, WHS has introduced a hell of a lot more work for Committees if they are to keep in control of general play rounds.

How are the club seeing the cards from social rounds ?‍

 

[Swango1980]

No sorry, the opposite. This is the only area WHS has improved things, now players register for a GP round, and submit. Before a player had to inform you somehow, then send in the card and the h'cap sec had to upload it.

Yes it seems England has issues with not having a registration time out, but that's App development and not WHS. I'm getting less of a WHS fan by the day, but taking away having to contact the club and simply going out and registering that you're going to play a GP round is an improvement

You could register and submit scores electronically pre WHS. All it required was Committee to verify it. That didn't take long, and it ensured committee were happy player had met their requirements before it touched their handicap record

 

[Swango1980]

Yes I know, that's why I said the SG App doesnt allow that, neither should HDID.

Regarding chasing scores, your club gets that many? We're lucky if there's one per week.

When I was handicap sec, I was chasing at least half a dozen per week, and other clubs get many more general play rounds than ours. Those communications then take time, responses come back (or not) at different times, and then appropriate penalty scores need to be determined

 

[Swango1980]

How are the club seeing the cards from social rounds ?‍

Because, when I submitted my physical card for my own general play round (after electronically submitting), club then manually input my score again and every other players score who appeared on the card.

I told them that only I pre registered, and they replied that they enter all scores they see, as technically all scores should count towards handicap. So, I've been told to score out any other player scores who do not want them to count.

 

[Swango1980]

Whats a cope out is when you know blatant disregard of things are going on and ignoring it. Cheats and committees not carrying out their duties need calling out, it's the only way things can improve.

Having just arrived at the club, apologies, but I do not want to be that guy. The guy that arrives at a respected club with over 700 members, and calls them out for not undertaking their duties.

I have informed them that pre registration is still necessary, and I have told them most people likely (and should) enter scores electronically, so not to automatically enter scores from physical cards without checking. I have told them they can disable non qualifying option on HDID, which they have now done so that is something. As to the player, I have told him why pre registration is required. However, I am sure it is in one ear, and out the other.

I will not, however, start reporting this individual to Committee for continually doing this. That puts me in a position that should not exist, as the club itself should have the procedures to capture this behaviour. I will not report the club to county, as that is likely to backfire on me personally. At best, it could be a gradual process of more and more golfers getting agitated before clubs improve their policies, and software becomes better and helps them more.

However, I would like to think I am well versed in the rules of handicapping. If I was within the 90+% of other club golfers, I probably wouldn't even realise there was an issue to discuss, or rules being broken.

 

[Old Skier]

Because, when I submitted my physical card for my own general play round (after electronically submitting), club then manually input my score again and every other players score who appeared on the card.

I told them that only I pre registered, and they replied that they enter all scores they see, as technically all scores should count towards handicap. So, I've been told to score out any other player scores who do not want them to count.

Where is this technically “all scores count towards HC” laid down. I have been to WHS briefings from EG & county over the last 3 years and this suggestion as dropped after year 1 and has never appeared in any official literature.

 

[Old Skier]

Having just arrived at the club, apologies, but I do not want to be that guy. The guy that arrives at a respected club with over 700 members, and calls them out for not undertaking their duties.

I have informed them that pre registration is still necessary, and I have told them most people likely (and should) enter scores electronically, so not to automatically enter scores from physical cards without checking. I have told them they can disable non qualifying option on HDID, which they have now done so that is something. As to the player, I have told him why pre registration is required. However, I am sure it is in one ear, and out the other.

I will not, however, start reporting this individual to Committee for continually doing this. That puts me in a position that should not exist, as the club itself should have the procedures to capture this behaviour. I will not report the club to county, as that is likely to backfire on me personally. At best, it could be a gradual process of more and more golfers getting agitated before clubs improve their policies, and software becomes better and helps them more.

However

I appreciate your argument but a quite word to the county secretary would/should result in a quite meeting between Club and county to check procedures with no names mentioned would/normally takes place.

 

[SteveJay]

Because, when I submitted my physical card for my own general play round (after electronically submitting), club then manually input my score again and every other players score who appeared on the card.

I told them that only I pre registered, and they replied that they enter all scores they see, as technically all scores should count towards handicap. So, I've been told to score out any other player scores who do not want them to count.

Don't believe that is within the spirit or rules of WHS. How do they know that those other guys didn't take gimmes or not abide by WHS rules, given they had not declared their intention to do so before hand.

 

[ger147]

Don't believe that is within the spirit or rules of WHS. How do they know that those other guys didn't take gimmes or not abide by WHS rules, given they had not declared their intention to do so before hand.

More to the point, how do they know who the other guys are? I've checked many cards before, good luck working out what their names are from marker's signatures or which score belongs to who when 3 or more scores are marked on the same card.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Because, when I submitted my physical card for my own general play round (after electronically submitting), club then manually input my score again and every other players score who appeared on the card.

I told them that only I pre registered, and they replied that they enter all scores they see, as technically all scores should count towards handicap. So, I've been told to score out any other player scores who do not want them to count.

So you are putting in general scores on cards with other players scores on it ?‍

Why are you not just using the EG app for general scores ?‍ No need for any score card

And if scores are being put into the system without pre register and they are also just entering scores without players knowing then speak to the county or even EG

 

[Swango1980]

Where is this technically “all scores count towards HC” laid down. I have been to WHS briefings from EG & county over the last 3 years and this suggestion as dropped after year 1 and has never appeared in any official literature.

We both know this to be the case. Sadly, between whoever runs the handicap committee at this club / management, they've managed to get their wires crossed. I've no idea if those responsible have been so long term and simply failed to pick this up, or the position was recently filled and this is not something they've appreciated. We all know this was a common misconception amongst many members leading up to, and after implementation of WHS. Unfortunately, this misconception can infect those even on Committee. I guess we are all human and make mistakes. All I can hope is that my gentle e-mail flagged this as an issue, but we'll see.

 

[Rlburnside]

Because, when I submitted my physical card for my own general play round (after electronically submitting), club then manually input my score again and every other players score who appeared on the card.

I told them that only I pre registered, and they replied that they enter all scores they see, as technically all scores should count towards handicap. So, I've been told to score out any other player scores who do not want them to count.

Can I ask why you had to hand your card in after a general play round having electronically submitted the card?

When I entered a general play round via the SG app I pre registered and imputed my score after the round it took no time and was simple and no work for the handicap secretary.

Seems a very good system to me

It does seem open to abuse in England if after you pre register a round and don’t enter that round there is no penalty.

 

[Swango1980]

Don't believe that is within the spirit or rules of WHS. How do they know that those other guys didn't take gimmes or not abide by WHS rules, given they had not declared their intention to do so before hand.

Absolutely correct, they should not have counted. This is the problem. It seems that those that run golf club committees have a wide range of knowledge on WHS. Some will know it back to front (most of those in here), whilst others will have large gaps in their understanding.

 

[Swango1980]

More to the point, how do they know who the other guys are? I've checked many cards before, good luck working out what their names are from marker's signatures or which score belongs to who when 3 or more scores are marked on the same card.

I filled in the card. As en ex handicap sec, I know exactly what you mean. So I put full names on the card, and wrote very clearly, so that if they wanted to verify any of my scores they know who I was playing with. I never thought for a second they'd enter those players into the handicap system. I only found out when one of them text me and accused my of entering his scores behind his back (which of course is impossible, as I cannot log in as him). This is when I checked and noticed all players were entered, and my score appeared twice.

 

[Swango1980]

So you are putting in general scores on cards with other players scores on it ?‍

Why are you not just using the EG app for general scores ?‍ No need for any score card

And if scores are being put into the system without pre register and they are also just entering scores without players knowing then speak to the county or even EG

Because, there was a box that said "General Play Cards". I felt it appropriate to submit physical cards to complete the process, just in case they wish to file them, or check them at a later date to ensure my scores are legit. Also, the card was signed. HDID does not allow true marker verification of scores, so I wanted to ensure I had all bases covered.

 

[Swango1980]

Can I ask why you had to hand your card in after a general play round having electronically submitted the card?

When I entered a general play round via the SG app I pre registered and imputed my score after the round it took no time and was simple and no work for the handicap secretary.

Seems a very good system to me

It does seem open to abuse in England if after you pre register a round and don’t enter that round there is no penalty.

I hope I answered your first bit in my previous post. I appreciate some clubs do not require physical cards, but others will like them to ensure they are happy the scores are correct (not least, because there are quite a few occasions I've been able to check in my previous duties as handicap sec, players actually enter the wrong scores electronically)

There should be a penalty for a No Return in England, but it is up to the Committee to notice there has been a No Return and then act accordingly. An automatic penalty does not meet the requirements of WHS, as the penalty score could be one of 3 things depending on the situation (4 things if you include no penalty score as the NR was for a valid reason). Furthermore, as mentioned, players are able to sign in after the round and enter score after using HDID, so it is difficult to stop this unless you know the tee times each player had, and are willing to check in detail.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

So you are putting in general scores on cards with other players scores on it ?‍

Why are you not just using the EG app for general scores ?‍ No need for any score card

And if scores are being put into the system without pre register and they are also just entering scores without players knowing then speak to the county or even EG

We are a club V1 shop and any scores that go in via the MyEnglandGolf app without a card are virtually invisible to us (the Handicap Team). The only report you can see them on is the daily General Play rounds list or by looking at the individual's record. If they could improve the reporting I would agree as the MEG app is better than HDID.

 

[Swango1980]

We are a club V1 shop and any scores that go in via the MyEnglandGolf app without a card are virtually invisible to us (the Handicap Team). The only report you can see them on is the daily General Play rounds list or by looking at the individual's record. If they could improve the reporting I would agree as the MEG app is better than HDID.

I
I second that. When I went to checking general play scores, the MyEG submissions were a nightmare to check compared to HDID.

Furthermore, when I did check No Returns through the MyEG App, it seemed like on most occasions the player DID return their score, but it was not verified by a marker. Usually because their marker was not registered on MyEG. On all occasions, the player just forgot about it, never thinking to contact me and send the physical signed card for me to process. Not sure if there is now a differentiation between an unverified score and a No Returned score?

 

[Banchory Buddha]

You could register and submit scores electronically pre WHS. All it required was Committee to verify it. That didn't take long, and it ensured committee were happy player had met their requirements before it touched their handicap record

Swango sorry, but you were a H'cap Sec before WHS, I wasn't aware that you could register electronically before, certainly not made aware of the feature by HDID nor SG, so it was always manual notification, and scorecards sent to us by email for uploading, NOW there's none of that, register on the first tee, fill in your card by the time you've finished and it is done.

As I said, no fan of WHS, but this function is labour saving over the old process.