Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Do you have a degree in further maths?
World Handicap System
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IanM
Journeyman Pro
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- Monmouthshire, UK via Guildford!
Probably won't help. The qu I asked last week, it transpires that no adjustments to PCCs or anything were done, a lower score/diff now counts, but the HI went up. Go figure
Banchory Buddha
Well-known member
rulefan
Tour Winner
Yes
5.1a For an 18-hole Score
An 18-hole Score Differential is calculated as follows and rounded to the nearest tenth, with .5 rounded upwards:
Score Differential = (113 ÷ Slope Rating) x (adjusted gross score – Course Rating – PCC adjustment)
rulie
Head Pro
Did you look at and compare the best 8 of your last 20 before and after? The change in HI is only based on the most recent differential added.Probably won't help. The qu I asked last week, it transpires that no adjustments to PCCs or anything were done, a lower score/diff now counts, but the HI went up. Go figure
IanM
Journeyman Pro
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- Monmouthshire, UK via Guildford!
Yes. A lower differential was is added, handicap index went up. Was only 0.2 but the club are investigating. Not because it is life changing, but because they just want to understand what is happening.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Surely it's based on the average of the best 8 from last 20!
IanM... I expect the one that was dropped was a better score than the most recent one.
rulie
Head Pro
You added a new differential to your last 20 which replaced the 20th differential in your previous scoring record. What was the value of the one that fell off the record of your last 20?
rulie
Head Pro
Sorry, a typo - meant to say that it is NOT only based on the last differential added.
IanM
Journeyman Pro
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Green Man
Assistant Pro
Swango1980
Well-known member
Think my faith in the WHS has hit an all time low. Not necessarily the theoretical side of it, I have to trust the number crunching has come up with a good system. But, the practical side of it, especially in relation to the processing of general play rounds. It requires handicap committees to be seriously on top of this, and there is no doubt this will be almost impossible at some clubs that rely on volunteers. Even when processing is done by full time staff, they may not necessarily be golfers who fully understand the system. As handicap sec at my last club, I know how much effort was required in tracking general play rounds, and had to delete dozens that were not pre-registered and chase dozens where no score was returned. It was a nightmare and I have no doubt many clubs will simply not bother as they do not have the time.
I played with a low handicapper yesterday (index around 2), who I know is a vanity player. On the tee he announced he would be submitting his score for handicap. After a poor first 11 holes, he picked up before holing out on 12th and said "needless to say, I'm not submitting my score anymore". Had he pre-registered using the app, I know he will not be chased for a score. Had he not pre-registered, then there is no record anyway. But, if he had played well, he is allowed to submit his score (the club e-mailed me last week to say pre-registration was only required pre WHS, and that technically every round should count with WHS, so they hammer in every round to the system they find, regardless if the player intended it to count to handicap or not).
So, under the application of WHS at this club (and I've heard at other clubs, who are held in high esteem in the county), it would be extremely easy to achieve a much lower handicap than you necessarily deserve. With several + handicappers at the club, I'm sure this has an impact at the more elite end of amateur golf?
However, there are several roll ups at the club where players play for quite a bit of cash. If they are not vanity players, it would be easy for some to either have a good round and win the money (then bin their card), or have a bad round and mitigate that by handing in card to keep a higher handicap. There are many players who play most of their competitive golf in Opens. So easy for them to only submit poor scores from social rounds to keep their handicap as high as possible. Realistically, how many clubs have the resources to keep on top of this, where they have hundreds of members and many general play rounds being submitted a week? It doesn't matter if the vast majority of golfers have integrity, it counts for little if a handful of golfers in the field are quite content to keep their handicap higher than it should be.
Mind you, how many club golfers have read WHS and know the player responsibilities for handicapping? Outside this forum, I'd say it is close to 0%. Most golfers think they are acting with integrity by shooting a good score and only after choosing to submit it. They'd have no idea that they cannot do this.
Pre WHS the Committee had to verify any score coming in, regardless if it was submitted electronically or physically. It should become quickly obvious if a player is handing in a load of cards if there is a pattern (and if they are handing in bad scores, at least they only went up 0.1 a round, so their handicap shouldn't get too high before alarm bells ring). With WHS scores are just being put straight into the system and handicaps adjusted daily. Inevitably, I'm sure many Committees will just accept them without much / any checking (especially when some have been fooled when told "don't worry, the technology does all the work so you don't have to" and taken this too literally)
For years I've heard comment on US player handicaps, and how they do not reflect their ability because it is a free for all in terms of what scores are entered. I'm afraid we are now in a position where a player's handicap has less meaning than ever before (or at least than the last 15-20 years since I started playing golf)
I still wonder, has the WHS system really enhanced the game of golf for players and committees? Were people staying away from the game because they didn't like CONGU previously? Did they stay away from the game because they didn't have a compatible handicap if they went abroad? I have my doubts. And, with WHS, are Committees really enjoying tracking all these general play rounds coming in? Deleting scores, chasing No Returns, determining suitable penalty scores. Or, would they prefer to be without the hassle?
I played with a low handicapper yesterday (index around 2), who I know is a vanity player. On the tee he announced he would be submitting his score for handicap. After a poor first 11 holes, he picked up before holing out on 12th and said "needless to say, I'm not submitting my score anymore". Had he pre-registered using the app, I know he will not be chased for a score. Had he not pre-registered, then there is no record anyway. But, if he had played well, he is allowed to submit his score (the club e-mailed me last week to say pre-registration was only required pre WHS, and that technically every round should count with WHS, so they hammer in every round to the system they find, regardless if the player intended it to count to handicap or not).
So, under the application of WHS at this club (and I've heard at other clubs, who are held in high esteem in the county), it would be extremely easy to achieve a much lower handicap than you necessarily deserve. With several + handicappers at the club, I'm sure this has an impact at the more elite end of amateur golf?
However, there are several roll ups at the club where players play for quite a bit of cash. If they are not vanity players, it would be easy for some to either have a good round and win the money (then bin their card), or have a bad round and mitigate that by handing in card to keep a higher handicap. There are many players who play most of their competitive golf in Opens. So easy for them to only submit poor scores from social rounds to keep their handicap as high as possible. Realistically, how many clubs have the resources to keep on top of this, where they have hundreds of members and many general play rounds being submitted a week? It doesn't matter if the vast majority of golfers have integrity, it counts for little if a handful of golfers in the field are quite content to keep their handicap higher than it should be.
Mind you, how many club golfers have read WHS and know the player responsibilities for handicapping? Outside this forum, I'd say it is close to 0%. Most golfers think they are acting with integrity by shooting a good score and only after choosing to submit it. They'd have no idea that they cannot do this.
Pre WHS the Committee had to verify any score coming in, regardless if it was submitted electronically or physically. It should become quickly obvious if a player is handing in a load of cards if there is a pattern (and if they are handing in bad scores, at least they only went up 0.1 a round, so their handicap shouldn't get too high before alarm bells ring). With WHS scores are just being put straight into the system and handicaps adjusted daily. Inevitably, I'm sure many Committees will just accept them without much / any checking (especially when some have been fooled when told "don't worry, the technology does all the work so you don't have to" and taken this too literally)
For years I've heard comment on US player handicaps, and how they do not reflect their ability because it is a free for all in terms of what scores are entered. I'm afraid we are now in a position where a player's handicap has less meaning than ever before (or at least than the last 15-20 years since I started playing golf)
I still wonder, has the WHS system really enhanced the game of golf for players and committees? Were people staying away from the game because they didn't like CONGU previously? Did they stay away from the game because they didn't have a compatible handicap if they went abroad? I have my doubts. And, with WHS, are Committees really enjoying tracking all these general play rounds coming in? Deleting scores, chasing No Returns, determining suitable penalty scores. Or, would they prefer to be without the hassle?
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Very well summed up.
I think anyone who knows anything about this subject is not suprized.
I don’t know anyone who needs a handicap to play competition abroad.
It must be a very low percentage.
But some volunteers at clubs must be having second thoughts about doing this work given the workload now.
As for manipulating handicaps we all knew this would make it easier.
Competition golf as it was is over imo given the ridiculous scores that are coming in , but a crystal ball wasn’t nessesary to see this coming.
Banchory Buddha
Well-known member
I agree with all you've said, just a question here, but does the App in England not make you pre-register your intent to submit a GP score like the Scottish one does? In Scotland he'd receive a penalty score for doing what he's done there
Banchory Buddha
Well-known member
Also agree with all of this, we had a meeting last night where the bolded part came up. Many disgruntled single figure players (our lowest h'capper has played just the Club Championship this year and nothing else) to such an extent that we're being tasked with reviewing all competitions in the off season or risk more low HCI players just giving up on normal medal play.
I hope (in vain I'd be sure) that the authorities are looking at the mess they've made and are reviewing for 2022.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Really? Are they all off scratch?
Banchory Buddha
Well-known member
I think he means nobody he knows played competitively abroad, I'd echo that, it was creating a system that wasn't needed, except of course for elite squads. Once again blazers being out of touch with 99.9% of their subscription paying members.
Swango1980
Well-known member
The HDID App asks you to pre-register, as des the MyEG App. However, no penalty score is applied for a No Return. It is up to the Committee to find out there was a no return, chase the player, and enter a penalty score if required. The penalty score has to be applicable to the reasoning for the No Return, which is why it cannot be done automatically.
Furthermore, if a player does not pre-register, scores are being accepted anyway if the player chooses to submit score after round.
wjemather
Well-known member
We have an annual club trip which involves a trophy comp with around 20-30 tourists and a similar number of locals. Previously the tourists with UHS handicaps had almost no chance against the locals with their EGA handicaps. Now, with everyone using the same system, we should have an even playing field.
Rlburnside
Challenge Tour Pro
I would agree we have a bi- annual competition with another club involving around 30 players their members have never won on our course as it’s much harder than their home course.
We are away this year and my handicap is 2 shots less on their course, the new system makes the matches fairer
