World Handicap System

[Banchory Buddha]

The HDID App asks you to pre-register, as des the MyEG App. However, no penalty score is applied for a No Return. It is up to the Committee to find out there was a no return, chase the player, and enter a penalty score if required. The penalty score has to be applicable to the reasoning for the No Return, which is why it cannot be done automatically.

Furthermore, if a player does not pre-register, scores are being accepted anyway if the player chooses to submit score after round.

Wow. Totally different to the SG App, your mate would be getting penalty scores so he'd have to start posting whatever he took if he was here.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

I would agree we have a bi- annual competition with another club involving around 30 players their members have never won on our course as it’s much harder than their home course.

We are away this year and my handicap is 2 shots less on their course, the new system makes the matches fairer

OK, but that's unusual, there's very few clubs hold overseas matches

 

[Swango1980]

Wow. Totally different to the SG App, your mate would be getting penalty scores so he'd have to start posting whatever he took if he was here.

He would avoid a penalty score by simply not registering in the first place (as scores are still incorrectly accepted if a player does not pre-register, but he wishes to submit a good score after round)

Also, if a different player was issuing no returns, and happy to have a high handicap, then automatically giving him a high penalty score could be disastrous and against the WHS guidance. If a player forgets to return a score, a high penalty score is also not appropriate, rather the penalty score should represent a score in which they play to their handicap.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

He would avoid a penalty score by simply not registering in the first place (as scores are still incorrectly accepted if a player does not pre-register, but he wishes to submit a good score after round)

Also, if a different player was issuing no returns, and happy to have a high handicap, then automatically giving him a high penalty score could be disastrous and against the WHS guidance. If a player forgets to return a score, a high penalty score is also not appropriate, rather the penalty score should represent a score in which they play to their handicap.

Re the first bit, no he wouldn't because there's a time bar, he can't just decide after his round 'that was a good un, I'm posting that' , unless he wanted to sit in the car park for over two hours

Second point, that's for the committee to give a low penalty score, so system would work fine still, and we do get a notification email for every one, so it just takes a minute to see what's going on

 

[Swango1980]

Re the first bit, no he wouldn't because there's a time bar, he can't just decide after his round 'that was a good un, I'm posting that' , unless he wanted to sit in the car park for over two hours

Second point, that's for the committee to give a low penalty score, so system would work fine still, and we do get a notification email for every one, so it just takes a minute to see what's going on

No, howdidido allows a player to sign in and enter score immediately afterwards. However, even if it didn't, the club are entering any score they see on a card onto a player's record, whether they pre-register or not (so issue is partly tech, partly education).

Regarding the second point, there will be less issues if Committees check every score coming in. It does not take a minute. When I was handicap sec, it could take an hour or 2 to go through all submitted scores (if it was done a couple of times per week), checking pre-registration and then chasing No Returns. Then, going back and dealing with all replies and non replies, before deciding how to apply penalty scores. This is the issue, WHS has introduced a hell of a lot more work for Committees if they are to keep in control of general play rounds.

 

[wjemather]

No, howdidido allows a player to sign in and enter score immediately afterwards. However, even if it didn't, the club are entering any score they see on a card onto a player's record, whether they pre-register or not (so issue is partly tech, partly education).

Regarding the second point, there will be less issues if Committees check every score coming in. It does not take a minute. When I was handicap sec, it could take an hour or 2 to go through all submitted scores (if it was done a couple of times per week), checking pre-registration and then chasing No Returns. Then, going back and dealing with all replies and non replies, before deciding how to apply penalty scores. This is the issue, WHS has introduced a hell of a lot more work for Committees if they are to keep in control of general play rounds.

As you've alluded to, almost all the additional work committees are seeing is down to lack of knowledge. You cannot force players to learn the rules or their responsibilities, but they will slowly get used to how things work over time. However, it isn't going to help if the club committee also lack the required (sometimes basic) knowledge, are incompetent, or just don't care.

 

[Swango1980]

As you've alluded to, almost all the additional work committees are seeing is down to lack of knowledge. You cannot force players to learn the rules or their responsibilities, but they will slowly get used to how things work over time. However, it isn't going to help if the club committee also lack the required (sometimes basic) knowledge, are incompetent, or just don't care.

Agreed, but the effort involved is much more than pre WHS. WHS requires much more from Committees. It was nowhere near as time consuming pre WHS, assuming one was to ensure general play rounds were being submitted correctly.

 

[clubchamp98]

Really? Are they all off scratch?

In 40 yrs of playing golf neither me or anyone I know has played in a official comp abroad.
Scratch or otherwise.

 

[clubchamp98]

Wow. Totally different to the SG App, your mate would be getting penalty scores so he'd have to start posting whatever he took if he was here.

So WHS working in different ways in different countries.
It’s supposed to be worldwide or so I was assuming a level playing field.

 

[nickjdavis]

The HDID App asks you to pre-register, as des the MyEG App. However, no penalty score is applied for a No Return. It is up to the Committee to find out there was a no return, chase the player, and enter a penalty score if required. The penalty score has to be applicable to the reasoning for the No Return, which is why it cannot be done automatically.

Furthermore, if a player does not pre-register, scores are being accepted anyway if the player chooses to submit score after round.

Also, even if a player has pre-registered he can subsequently delete his "scoring intent" from within the app. As far as I am aware there is no "automatic flag" that highlights to a committee when a player has deleted his intention to submit a score....the committee must pro-actively interrogate the WHS system and run the report that tells them about deleted score intents.

 

[Colin L]

So WHS working in different ways in different countries.
It’s supposed to be worldwide or so I was assuming a level playing field.

Don't blame the system for failures of people to administer it properly or to programme software correctly.

 

[Rlburnside]

Sorry I should have pointed these matches in the UK.

OK, but that's unusual, there's very few clubs hold overseas matches

Should have said these matches are in the UK

 

[Old Skier]

Very strange that people are suggesting that the WHS is responsible when it comes to HC manipulation, it’s been going on for years and HC committee have always tried to do their best to deal with it.

If clubs are allowing the system to be abused why aren’t members reporting them to county. Nobody on this forum can sort it. Those responsible do there best.

 

[Old Skier]

Also, even if a player has pre-registered he can subsequently delete his "scoring intent" from within the app. As far as I am aware there is no "automatic flag" that highlights to a committee when a player has deleted his intention to submit a score....the committee must pro-actively interrogate the WHS system and run the report that tells them about deleted score intents.

If the player submits through the EG app the WHS DB provides a quick and easy report that shows whether the player completed the process.

 

[Swango1980]

Very strange that people are suggesting that the WHS is responsible when it comes to HC manipulation, it’s been going on for years and HC committee have always tried to do their best to deal with it.

If clubs are allowing the system to be abused why aren’t members reporting them to county. Nobody on this forum can sort it. Those responsible do there best.

That is a good way for a member to enhance their reputation at a club.

However, I suspect there are going to be issues down the road that will need to be dealt with. Because there is no doubt in my mind the handicap system has never been so easy to manipulate, and so hard for Committee members to keep under control.

Yes, handicap manipulation has been going on for years. So, it appears they have designed a system that makes it easier than ever to manipulate.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

No, howdidido allows a player to sign in and enter score immediately afterwards. However, even if it didn't, the club are entering any score they see on a card onto a player's record, whether they pre-register or not (so issue is partly tech, partly education).

Regarding the second point, there will be less issues if Committees check every score coming in. It does not take a minute. When I was handicap sec, it could take an hour or 2 to go through all submitted scores (if it was done a couple of times per week), checking pre-registration and then chasing No Returns. Then, going back and dealing with all replies and non replies, before deciding how to apply penalty scores. This is the issue, WHS has introduced a hell of a lot more work for Committees if they are to keep in control of general play rounds.

Yes I know, that's why I said the SG App doesnt allow that, neither should HDID.

Regarding chasing scores, your club gets that many? We're lucky if there's one per week.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Agreed, but the effort involved is much more than pre WHS. WHS requires much more from Committees. It was nowhere near as time consuming pre WHS, assuming one was to ensure general play rounds were being submitted correctly.

No sorry, the opposite. This is the only area WHS has improved things, now players register for a GP round, and submit. Before a player had to inform you somehow, then send in the card and the h'cap sec had to upload it.

Yes it seems England has issues with not having a registration time out, but that's App development and not WHS. I'm getting less of a WHS fan by the day, but taking away having to contact the club and simply going out and registering that you're going to play a GP round is an improvement

 

[Banchory Buddha]

So WHS working in different ways in different countries.
It’s supposed to be worldwide or so I was assuming a level playing field.

Yup, Scotland have variations to Course Handicap, we use the exact, whereas Wales, England & Ireland use rounded before getting Playing Handicap, other countries have heir own carve outs too. Makes an absolute mockery of "World"

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Also, even if a player has pre-registered he can subsequently delete his "scoring intent" from within the app. As far as I am aware there is no "automatic flag" that highlights to a committee when a player has deleted his intention to submit a score....the committee must pro-actively interrogate the WHS system and run the report that tells them about deleted score intents.

This is incorrect, prior to confirming you are about to start a GP score, the App warns you this can't be undone, there is no facility to cancel.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Sorry I should have pointed these matches in the UK.

Should have said these matches are in the UK

The point made was about WHS being introduced because different countries handicaps weren't aligned due to the different processes, but that almost nobody actually plays competitively abroad, indeed the vast majority of players don;t play competitively outside their own club.

Club matches always have home advantage, and the larger the teams the more likely the home team will triumph. The SSS took care of handicaps varying from club to club as it reflected difficulty. Some SSS were undoubtedly wrong, but then the course ratings have barely changed under WHS, they haven't fixed the only thing that was broken with the old system, while bringing in a lot of breakages.