World Handicap System

[rulefan]

Apparently the software in Scotland automatically applies a very high penalty score for any no returns (contrary to WHS Guidance). The software in England does not, and leaves it to handicap committee to decide the appropriate penalty score.

I think this is what he refers to. He seems to think this is much better in Scotland, because he does not have to chase players who no return, the system takes care of it.

Yes, that is part of what I was referring to but do not like the apparently very high penalty applied in Scotland.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Whilst I agree that folks were not previously "screaming out for this" (in fact quite the opposite) and perhaps that authorities were a bit out of touch in this regard, now that the facility to record GP scores is available with nice snazzy apps by which to submit scores, it is being heartily embraced by many people and is (certainly from what I can see at my club) growing in popularity.
.

We're not seeing this at all

 

[Banchory Buddha]

No, I joined my new club 2 weeks ago. Did you miss the part that said "I was handicap secretary until August 2021"?

Just thought it was a typo, assumed you'd meant April

 

[rulefan]

Bloke I’m playing in the next round of one of our knockouts hasn’t put a card in for two months (I’ve not done loads but have put in on average one a week). How can a H/I reflect a players average ability if he’s not putting in cards. Of course I get that he might not have been able to play much or indeed at all, and so his golf might be very rusty - but if I was of a suspicious mind I could imagine a bit of handicap protection going on. Does WHS not really require regular submission of ‘cards’ for it to work well and fairly?

(I note that we played each other earlier this year in another comp - that he won the match and seemed to play way better than his H/I might point to the source of my little grumble ??)

Anyway. It’s just a golf match and the guys a decent guy, so I’ll enjoy it whatever.

How does the situation differ from CONGU?

 

[Imurg]

Whilst I agree that folks were not previously "screaming out for this" (in fact quite the opposite) and perhaps that authorities were a bit out of touch in this regard, now that the facility to record GP scores is available with nice snazzy apps by which to submit scores, it is being heartily embraced by many people and is (certainly from what I can see at my club) growing in popularity.

One of the key things that I think might be contributing to this is that a players handicap index is far more "live" than it ever was under the old Congu supplementary scores process, in that a player might have to wait a couple of days before his card was processed to see his "new" handicap. Now, you upload a score via an App and it tells you pretty much instantaneously what your new index will be.....its almost like a kid knowing he is going to get a present and not being able to wait to unwrap it.

One of the reasons we left a certain club surrounded by a well known Zoo in Hertfordshire was that it would take a minimum of 3 weeks to get a Supplementary processed.
As we were only granted 5 comps a year we tried to put in plenty of Supps but when it takes almost a month to get processed, especially if it takes you up a number on your handicap, you can't put many in..
Now we put in 1 or 2 a week - all my 20 scores are from the last 2 1/2 months.

 

[BiMGuy]

You'd be worried about me then, I almost never play with anyone in a bounce game, I can be at the course for 4.30, so I like to go out and whip round for a practice on my own.

It's simply an alien concept in the UK to hand in GP scores, and if it ever catches on it will be a long time. We have under 1/3 or our total membership with a handicap at all, never mind the many who almost never play a medal. It's another sign of how out of touch the governing bodies are that they thought folks were screaming out for this, all they've done is piss off existing players[/QUOTE]

Some existing players. I know very few who are annoyed by WHS. Those that are, are generally the type to look for something to be annoyed about.

Others just don't understand it. Most aren't bothered.

Some seem to take too keen of an interest in wanting to calculate exactly what their HI will be. Almost to the point it looks like they want to be able to manipulate it.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Low handicappers generally want to know what they're at, and what they've just done, sorry it doesn't apply to you, but even some higher handicappers are the same, it's not about manipulation, it's about understanding. I'd say the majority in our comps are grumbling about it, I've yet to hear anyone praise it, so that kinda tells you a lot.

The only praise that's about is the ease of submitting non-competitive scores, and on that I'd agree as well.

 

[nickjdavis]

Wasn’t it sort of instantaneous under the old system as you had to cut yourself immediately if you put in a card that reduced your handicap? Also 9 times out of 10 you knew that after a bad round you were going up 0.1 which wasn’t difficult maths to do?

Sure...but its not about self adjustment or ease of doing the maths...its the fact that the change in handicap becomes visible a lot quicker in an official sense (i.e. you can see it on the app on the screen immediately rather than wait for a new handicap list to be posted on the noticeboard) and players can see it change in real time that is possibly driving the increase in GP cards that are being submitted.

Its not a case of knowing what it will change to....its a case of actually seeing that change occur.

 

[IanM]

it's not about manipulation, it's about understanding. I'd say the majority in our comps are grumbling about it, I've yet to hear anyone praise it, so that kinda tells you a lot..

That's it for me. "Understanding" - I don't want to work stuff out to 8 decimal places, but I want an understanding of what is going on. The WHS Design Committee aimed for mathematical perfection, and forgot (or should that be didn't have sufficient respect to bother) to engage with key sections of their stakeholders.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Sure...but its not about self adjustment or ease of doing the maths...its the fact that the change in handicap becomes visible a lot quicker in an official sense (i.e. you can see it on the app on the screen immediately rather than wait for a new handicap list to be posted on the noticeboard) and players can see it change in real time that is possibly driving the increase in GP cards that are being submitted.

Its not a case of knowing what it will change to....its a case of actually seeing that change occur.

That's incorrect, handicaps don't change until post-midnight, whereas under CONGU they updated as soon as the comp closed.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

How does the situation differ from CONGU?

It doesn’t other than my understanding of the point of WHS is that it can provide a more accurate reflection of my current average ability rather than what I had the potential for shooting on my best days. And so if some are getting H/Is based upon a lot of recent scores whilst others have H/Is based largely upon historic scores then there is an inconsistency that may undermine any shot allowances.

Truth is I’m not actually that bothered - whether or not I beat the guy in the match to come will in truth come down in most part to how I play.

I just have a gut feeling that says that if I enter handicap comps I should be submitting sufficient cards to make my H/I consistent with how I am currently playing - as that is what WHS is all about if it is about anything at all.

 

[Swango1980]

That's incorrect, handicaps don't change until post-midnight, whereas under CONGU they updated as soon as the comp closed.

You've gone off on a bit of a tangent there. I thought the discussion was specifically around General Play rounds, NOT competitions. The point Nick was making is that players can generally see the change on their handicap index much more quickly under WHS after submitting a GP round, rather than potentially wait for days pre WHS.

For those with access to England Golf Platform (committee members), it actually tells you what a players predicted Index will be for the following day (assuming PCC= 0), before becoming official the next day. This is not shown on the regular players MyEG app. I think it would be another nice addition, albeit players can at least see their score differential and predict whether there will be a change or not the following day.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

That's incorrect, handicaps don't change until post-midnight, whereas under CONGU they updated as soon as the comp closed.

Under previous system I am not sure that the CSSS was known immediately and so though I might be able to guess any up or down I’m not sure I could do so precisely until the CSSS for the comp was published. Not sure on that though.

 

[Swango1980]

Under previous system I am not sure that the CSSS was known immediately and so though I might be able to guess any up or down I’m not sure I could do so precisely until the CSSS for the comp was published. Not sure on that though.

The CSS was shown as soon as the comp was closed. So, if the comp was closed on the day of the comp, all handicaps would be immediately adjusted. You only had to guess what your adjustment might be immediately after your round, while having a drink and waiting for the final competitors to finish, and the comp sec to close the comp (if you were lucky enough to have the comp closed in timely fashion).

However, on occasions, it could take a day or 2 for a club to close a comp, so you'd have to wait for official confirmation. So, on the flip side , one advantage of WHS is that it doesn't matter when the comp is closed. Could be weeks later, but your handicap will still be updated the day after your round as long as you put your score in the system.

 

[Old Skier]

Missing the (really) old school moaning that is should all be based on par.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

You've gone off on a bit of a tangent there. I thought the discussion was specifically around General Play rounds, NOT competitions. The point Nick was making is that players can generally see the change on their handicap index much more quickly under WHS after submitting a GP round, rather than potentially wait for days pre WHS.

For those with access to England Golf Platform (committee members), it actually tells you what a players predicted Index will be for the following day (assuming PCC= 0), before becoming official the next day. This is not shown on the regular players MyEG app. I think it would be another nice addition, albeit players can at least see their score differential and predict whether there will be a change or not the following day.

The point he was replying to was about self-adjustment for competitions where reduction wasn't known, for GP that's questionable, you're assuming that the card isn't uploaded same day under CONGU, which wouldn't always be the case.

I think we're all agreed that in general WHS is miles ahead for GP functionality, but that's not where it is used by the majority, it's the rest of it that's the issue, including the new handicap indexes

 

[nickjdavis]

Sure...but its not about self adjustment or ease of doing the maths...its the fact that the change in handicap becomes visible a lot quicker in an official sense (i.e. you can see it on the app on the screen immediately rather than wait for a new handicap list to be posted on the noticeboard) and players can see it change in real time that is possibly driving the increase in GP cards that are being submitted.

Its not a case of knowing what it will change to....its a case of actually seeing that change occur.

That's incorrect, handicaps don't change until post-midnight, whereas under CONGU they updated as soon as the comp closed.

I'm afraid once more that it is yourself that is wrong.

When I submit a score on the MyEG app, although the change is not official until midnight, the MyEG app actually updates itself immediately and shows the player what his updated Index will be, subject of course to any PCC adjustments.

If you don't believe me, attached is a screenshot of my MyEG dashboard, direct from the App.

I've just submitted a score this morning Fri 13th August....my Index at the beginning of the day was 8.6.....you can see at the top of the screen it now says 7.8...already updated on the basis of todays round.

 

[nickjdavis]

The point he was replying to was about self-adjustment for competitions where reduction wasn't known, for GP that's questionable, you're assuming that the card isn't uploaded same day under CONGU, which wouldn't always be the case.

There was no mention of competitions in the point that I was replying to....

Wasn’t it sort of instantaneous under the old system as you had to cut yourself immediately if you put in a card that reduced your handicap? Also 9 times out of 10 you knew that after a bad round you were going up 0.1 which wasn’t difficult maths to do?

no mention of comps in that is there???

 

[jim8flog]

We're not seeing this at all

Certainly getting a lot doing it our club. In 2020 prior to the WHS starting we had a major campaign at our club to get players putting in as many Supplementary Cards (which was asked for at the workshops).

Several of the friendly swindles/rollups (not club organised) are encouraging all in the swindle to do it.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

subject of course to any PCC adjustments.

which is of course the crucial point.