World Handicap System

[louise_a]

You must be joking.

In the past when I have played in the Strathtyrum tournament all scores appeared on my handicap record automatically just as it did when I played in an away singles competition in England

 

[rulefan]

In the past when I have played in the Strathtyrum tournament all scores appeared on my handicap record automatically just as it did when I played in an away singles competition in England

Under CONGU there were English, Irish and Scottish/Welsh CDH versions in operation within GB&I to assist with the automatic return of away scores to the Home Clubs of Members.
I believe this process has not yet been incorporated in to the various national WHS databases.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

You must be joking.

No she's not, as Rulie says, it was part of the system before. It fell down if the scorer at the away club didn't search out the CDH number, but as long as they were doing their job it went through automatically.

 

[IanM]

There's more. Remember my wife getting a lower diff into her 8 and yet went up??

She's not played since last Tuesday and we were looking at her record on Saturday.

She just looked again, and in last 24 hours she's gone up a further 0.3

She's playing tomorrow...with the handicap coordinator for the ladies section. She's not happy, will be an interesting chat

A bit random for something based on mathematical averages

 

[IanM]

Update...

Handicap Coordinator and my wife having a coffee before the go out. She can't find a reason for the last anomaly. Explains a few things and says, "if you can shoot below 114 today, your HI will reduce, assuming a PCC of 0"

Donna fires a 109 and ................. her HI has gone up by an additional 0.1 (PCC 0) Donna rang her this morning to tell her.

Spookily, her HI is the average of the CURRENTLY 8 highlighted diffs, so that is ok... the score that dropped out would not have made the average the HI that was showing the day before. Email gone to Wales from St P handicap sec.

Donna has set up a spread sheet of her score and screen shotted the app... so, last 2 rounds, both scores better, and her HI went up, twice. Something is broken!

 

[clubchamp98]

Update...

Handicap Coordinator and my wife having a coffee before the go out. She can't find a reason for the last anomaly. Explains a few things and says, "if you can shoot below 114 today, your HI will reduce, assuming a PCC of 0"

Donna fires a 109 and ................. her HI has gone up by an additional 0.1 (PCC 0) Donna rang her this morning to tell her.

Spookily, her HI is the average of the CURRENTLY 8 highlighted diffs, so that is ok... the score that dropped out would not have made the average the HI that was showing the day before. Email gone to Wales from St P handicap sec.

Donna has set up a spread sheet of her score and screen shotted the app... so, last 2 rounds, both scores better, and her HI went up, twice. Something is broken!

She’s monitoring it as well.
How many are not ?
It could affect a lot of people.

 

[rosecott]

Update...

Handicap Coordinator and my wife having a coffee before the go out. She can't find a reason for the last anomaly. Explains a few things and says, "if you can shoot below 114 today, your HI will reduce, assuming a PCC of 0"

Donna fires a 109 and ................. her HI has gone up by an additional 0.1 (PCC 0) Donna rang her this morning to tell her.

Spookily, her HI is the average of the CURRENTLY 8 highlighted diffs, so that is ok... the score that dropped out would not have made the average the HI that was showing the day before. Email gone to Wales from St P handicap sec.

Donna has set up a spread sheet of her score and screen shotted the app... so, last 2 rounds, both scores better, and her HI went up, twice. Something is broken!

My money is on a rational explanation. I have had numerous queries about the calculations but all have turned out to be correct - some were due to "caps" and others due to players own incorrect calculations. Without access to the full record using the club officials access to the WHS record, it would be difficult to pinpoint the problem.

 

[IanM]

My money is on a rational explanation. I have had numerous queries about the calculations but all have turned out to be correct - some were due to "caps" and others due to players own incorrect calculations. Without access to the full record using the club officials access to the WHS record, it would be difficult to pinpoint the problem.

I hope so. But... we have done NO calculations or assumptions, just reading what is on the screen. Put simply, a new lower diff score becomes one of her best 8, and her HI increased. Not possible eh?

What I can see now is that the latest score in her record is "green" (ie one of her 8) but the HI is higher than before she played and, the one dropping out of the 20 was higher still (and not one of her previous best 8)

I wish we had taken a screen shot yesterday, that might have shown something. Something very odd is happening on her record.

Club have now raised with Wales Golf and doing random checks on other players to see if anything similar happening. Will post the outcome.

 

[Swango1980]

I hope so. But... we have done NO calculations or assumptions. On two occasions a lower "diff" has replaced as higher one in the best 8 scores, and the HI has increased. I wish we had taken a screen shot yesterday. Something very odd is happening on her record.

Club have now raised with Wales Golf. Will post the outcome.

You should probably still be able to take screenshots, if the layout is anything like the England Golf one. For each score entry, it states what the handicap index was for that round. So, you can see how the index changes after each round is submitted.

 

[louise_a]

I hope so. But... we have done NO calculations or assumptions. On two occasions a lower "diff" has replaced as higher one in the best 8 scores, and the HI has increased. What I can see now is that the latest score in her record is "green" (ie one of her 8) but the HI is higher than before she played and, the one dropping out of the 20 was higher still (and not one of her previous best 8)

I wish we had taken a screen shot yesterday, that might have shown something. Something very odd is happening on her record.

Club have now raised with Wales Golf. Will post the outcome.

Has her handicap being rising and has there been a cap in place that has now changed? or on the other hand had she had a stormer in the past that meant she had an adjustment that has now gone?

 

[IanM]

Has her handicap being rising and has there been a cap in place that has now changed? or on the other hand had she had a stormer in the past that meant she had an adjustment that has now gone?

That's a great question. I wonder if that is it? but if a cap came off, would that result in this? We'll see what Wales golf say. She's now taking screen shots...

If an HI is subject to a cap, how can you see that on the App?

 

[Green Bay Hacker]

That's a great question. I wonder if that is it? but if a cap came off, would that result in this? We'll see what Wales golf say. She's now taking screen shots...

If an HI is subject to a cap, how can you see that on the App?

By a cap, do you mean a 9 going down to a 7 for handicap purposes etc? If yes, you can see that by tapping on the score.

 

[wjemather]

That's a great question. I wonder if that is it? but if a cap came off, would that result in this? We'll see what Wales golf say. She's now taking screen shots...

If an HI is subject to a cap, how can you see that on the App?

The low index (which sets the cap boundaries) is reset every time a score is entered; as such, when the soft (or hard) cap is in effect, a player's handicap index could easily increase even when a differential better than their existing counting 8 is added if the low index increases significantly.

For example, one of our seniors has a current Handicap Index of 9.7 and a Low Index of 6.2, so is currently in Soft Cap territory; when he enters his next score (20th score is non-counting), his LI will increase to 7.1, which will result in a HI increase to 10.1 if next Score Differential is a whole stroke better than his current highest counting one, and an increase to 9.9 even if he matches his best counting SD.

 

[IanM]

Many thanks, but it doesn't quite answer the question,

Sentence 1: Definition of the caps which I have seen... but I didn't know, nor have I ever seen any info re the second half your sentence. I assume "low index" is defined as the "lowest HI in the last 12 months scores? I wonder how many players know you can add a better score t your 8 and still HI goes up? (assuming that's right)

Sentence 2: "when he enters his next score, his LI will increase to 7.1" - Why? Where does 7.1 come from? Second half of the sentence also needs clarifying please.

What is missing from the official explanation (I think) is the actually impact of being in a Cap. All the blurb defined what a Cap is, what it is for, but nothing (I saw) explained how being in the cap impacted your adjustments while in is in force and what happens to exit you from there.

Not doubt it is deep in the manuals somewhere that no club golfer has read.

 

[IanM]

Ok...Change Manager's Hat on...

Are you staying that.

"The application of the soft cap stops you going up by the full amount your score would (mathematically) require. Therefore while you are in it, any reduction in HI (by entering a better score) is off-set by the increase in HI not added due to the soft cap.

Phew, my head hurts.

 

[Swango1980]

Many thanks, but it doesn't quite answer the question,

Sentence 1: Definition of the caps which I have seen... but I didn't know, nor have I ever seen any info re the second half your sentence. I assume "low index" is defined as the "lowest HI in the last 12 months scores? I wonder how many players know you can add a better score t your 8 and still HI goes up? (assuming that's right)

Sentence 2: "when he enters his next score, his LI will increase to 7.1" - Why? Where does 7.1 come from? Second half of the sentence also needs clarifying please.

What is missing from the official explanation (I think) is the actually impact of being in a Cap. All the blurb defined what a Cap is, what it is for, but nothing (I saw) explained how being in the cap impacted your adjustments while in is in force and what happens to exit you from there.

Not doubt it is deep in the manuals somewhere that no club golfer has read.

Let us say your low Index if 8.5 in the last 12 months. However, based on your last 20 scores, your index would be 12.5. This passes the soft cap of 3 shots, so your actual index would be 12.0 (i.e. 8.5+3 + 1/2(1.0)).

You then go out and shoot another score, that is better than the one that you lose. Without the soft cap, your Index may have gone from 12.5 to 12.3

However, if your low handicap index changed between your last round and the one before that, from 8.5 to 8.9, then your index would be (8.9+3 +1/2(0.4)) = 12.1

So, your Index was 12.0 due to the soft cap of 8.5. You then submit a better round, but because your low handicap also increased, your new index actually increases to 12.1. If you simply ignored the soft cap, then your index would have gone from 12.5 to 12.3, which would have been more in line with what you'd expect.

 

[wjemather]

Many thanks, but it doesn't quite answer the question,

Sentence 1: Definition of the caps which I have seen... but I didn't know, nor have I ever seen any info re the second half your sentence. I assume "low index" is defined as the "lowest HI in the last 12 months scores? I wonder how many players know you can add a better score t your 8 and still HI goes up? (assuming that's right)

Sentence 2: "when he enters his next score, his LI will increase to 7.1" - Why? Where does 7.1 come from? Second half of the sentence also needs clarifying please.

What is missing from the official explanation (I think) is the actually impact of being in a Cap. All the blurb defined what a Cap is, what it is for, but nothing (I saw) explained how being in the cap impacted your adjustments while in is in force and what happens to exit you from there.

Not doubt it is deep in the manuals somewhere that no club golfer has read.

Yes, Low Index is the lowest Handicap Index achieved in the previous 365 days and is re-evaluated every time a new score is submitted. (Rule 5.7)

The caps are clearly defined (Rule 5.8) but the only example is an individual calculation; there are no examples to illustrate how a HI may be affected from one score to the next, specifically the scenario when the existing HI is subject to a cap.

In my example, 7.1 is his lowest HI in the last 12 months so will be his new LI when he submits his next score (6.2 was his lowest HI in the preceding 12 months when his most recent score was submitted). So...

His current best 8 average is 10.2375, so due to having a Low Index of 6.2 it is subject to the Soft Cap (whereby the value greater than 3 above the LI is halved). His Handicap Index is therefore calculated as follows:​

(LI + 3.0) + (Average - LI - 3.0)/2 = 9.2 + (1.0375 / 2) = 9.7​

If he were to enter a score equal to his highest counting differential, his Low Index becomes 7.1 and his new best 8 average would be 10.1375 and his new HI is calculated:​

(LI + 3.0) + (Average - LI - 3.0)/2 = 9.2 + (0.0375 / 2) = 10.1​

If he were to enter a score equal to his best counting differential, his Low Index becomes 7.1 and his new best 8 average would be 9.9 which is no longer subject to the Soft Cap.​

 

[IanM]

Crikey...thanks Swango (I think!)

- what is the + 1/2(1.0)). at the end of the top line? Is that just part of the formula used?

My statement in post #1099 is not therefore correct and the thing I was missing was the recalculation in the Low Index following the posting of a new score. (yes or no?)

She had several rounds close together in August 2020, so that explains the wobbles of the past few weeks!

Will the "soft cap" kerfuffle disappear once her Low Handicap is within 3 shots of her HI??

I appreciate the time you've taken to explain this. Interesting how so little of this appears to be common currency of experienced golfers. (inc the handicap coordinator of her club) I suspect certain folk on here would have looked at the record and said "soft cap" immediately! All the comms I've seen about soft caps just talk about it stopping HIs going up too fast. Nothing about what what it does in addition.

Waiting on the Wales Golf reply but I think this is it.

 

[rulie]

Soft cap and hard cap explained,
https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/softcaphardcap_detailed.pdf

 

[Swango1980]

Crikey...thanks Swango (I thank!

- what is the + 1/2(1.0)). at the end of the top line? Is that just part of the formula used?

My statement in post #1099 is not therefore correct and the thing I was missing was the recalculation in the Low Index following the posting of a new score. (yes or no?)

She had several rounds close together in August 2020, so that explains the wobbles of the past few weeks!

Will the "soft cap" kerfuffle disappear once her Low Handicap is within 3 shots of her HI??

I appreciate the time you've taken to explain this. Interesting how so little of this appears to be common currency of experienced golfers. (inc the handicap coordinator of her club) I suspect certain folk on here would have looked at the record and said "soft cap" immediately! All the comms I've seen about soft caps just talk about it stopping HIs going up too fast. Nothing about what what it does in addition.

Waiting on the Wales Golf reply but I think this is it.

The + 1/2(1.0) was simply adding half of the remaining handicap increase beyond the 3 shots over the low index. In other words, the raw index was 4 shots higher than the low index, so the actual index is equal to the low index plus 3 (the point the soft cap comes into play), plus half of the 1 shot left over.

Once a player's handicap is within 3 shots of their low index, then their actual index is simply the average of their lowest 8 score differentials, no further downward adjustments.