NR'd from a Medal - Thoughts?

[MACM85]

We had our first medal of the season this past weekend. My playing partner shot a 87 net 68 to win his division. Enters the score on the system etc. Leaves the club and goes on his merry way home.

Howdidido result comes though and doesn't show him as the winner. Checks the final result and he has been NR'd obviously miffed at this he contacts the competition secretary as presumes it is a type or admin error.

He gets the response of "the committee has agreed to DQ you as two members one being a committee member see you move your ball on the 9th without marking spot or discussing with other players" The spot in question was when I was actually 20 yards away from him he was in a mound and I could clearly see he was clearing twigs around the playing area but at no point did I witness a ball being picked up and moved.

The comittee member in question was 130 yards away on the 12th tee as we were playing the 9th. The committee member did not come over and question my playing partner or even mention it when they spoke after the 18th green once the player had finished the round.

Obviously the player in question got a fair amount of calls on Sunday evening in regards to did he cheat and hence why he was DQ'd after being the winner of the division.

He has contacted the committee and asked whats gone on as he is adament he hasn't moved the ball and how can a person 130 yards away make the call when surely there is doubt in play over what he saw. The committee member does wear glasses but I don't think that comes into it when we discuss the appropiate way of handling this.

What are people's thoughts on how they should handle it with the comittee? He has emailed but is wondering what rules of golf or other laws he can quotes to show that this has not been handled in the correct manor as he is now fearing he will be referred to as a cheat and will find competitions going forward an awkward environment.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Thoughts are simple

Even if the player did look to mark his ball he does not need to confirm with any player partners


As long as the ball is replaced in the same place and any penalty shot is added ( if taken an unplayable) or if it’s preferred lies then it doesn’t matter. No requirement to mark

Everything else - the committee member should have said something at the time and imo the handicap/competition committee/member should grow a pair and tell him to do one

Your PP should request a meeting with the Comp committee and this other committee member and ask to discuss the situation

 

[Jigger]

We had our first medal of the season this past weekend. My playing partner shot a 87 net 68 to win his division. Enters the score on the system etc. Leaves the club and goes on his merry way home.

Howdidido result comes though and doesn't show him as the winner. Checks the final result and he has been NR'd obviously miffed at this he contacts the competition secretary as presumes it is a type or admin error.

He gets the response of "the committee has agreed to DQ you as two members one being a committee member see you move your ball on the 9th without marking spot or discussing with other players" The spot in question was when I was actually 20 yards away from him he was in a mound and I could clearly see he was clearing twigs around the playing area but at no point did I witness a ball being picked up and moved.

The comittee member in question was 130 yards away on the 12th tee as we were playing the 9th. The committee member did not come over and question my playing partner or even mention it when they spoke after the 18th green once the player had finished the round.

Obviously the player in question got a fair amount of calls on Sunday evening in regards to did he cheat and hence why he was DQ'd after being the winner of the division.

He has contacted the committee and asked whats gone on as he is adament he hasn't moved the ball and how can a person 130 yards away make the call when surely there is doubt in play over what he saw. The committee member does wear glasses but I don't think that comes into it when we discuss the appropiate way of handling this.

What are people's thoughts on how they should handle it with the comittee? He has emailed but is wondering what rules of golf or other laws he can quotes to show that this has not been handled in the correct manor as he is now fearing he will be referred to as a cheat and will find competitions going forward an awkward environment.

Based on your account I would suggest you go in as a witness commutes to your view and both be a bit vocal around the club. It sounds like You have some chaps on your committee.

 

[wjemather]

It is highly unusual for a player to be disqualified for an on-course rules infraction without the situation being discussed with them first - there are simply too many variables that cannot be established by observation from over 100 yards away. Even if a player does move a ball without marking it, there are several legitimate reasons for doing so, and any penalty (if appropriate) may have been applied correctly. There is also no requirement to discuss matters with other players.

 

[chrisd]

Was he on the fairway and were "pick and place (winter rules) in place ?

 

[MACM85]

Was he on the fairway and were "pick and place (winter rules) in place ?

Ball wasn't fairway it was on a mound on the right handside of fairway. The lie was good when I walked past the player to my ball. He proceeded to hit the ball 180 to the green from the position

 

[Colin L]

Very badly handled. In any matter like this, the player Committee should advise the player of the situation and give him the opportunity to explain what, if anything, he was doing or had happened. Also, the Committee needs to be specific about what was observed and what rule has consequently been breached. It would also have to establish that the penalty for that breach was disqualification or that the player was aware of the breach and had not included the penalty in his score. If a breach had taken place and the player was unaware he he incurred a penalty, the outcome is that the penalty is retrospectively applied to his score, not disqualification.

Your friend should request the meeting that the Committee should have set up in the first place. He should, of course, also go through in his mind what might have been construed as his moving his ball. The Committee needs to be specific about the rules concerned - firstly the supposed breach and then the justification for a DQ. You should be interviewed too as a player who had observed the situation - at rather closer quarters than the Committee member.

If possible, he should just be calm and firmly insistent that he did not move his ball.

(You are only required to mark your ball when lifting it if the ball is to be replaced. You are not required to discuss matters with other players.)

 

[MACM85]

The member who witnessed the "infringment" contacted the person who was NR'd with their viewpoint

As I teed off the 12th I clearly saw you in the rough on the right off the fairway off the 9th.
I saw you clear the twigs away and then move your ball a foot to the left.
Before you did this I saw you look behind to see the other players looking for a ball.
I said to X as I walked passed that I had seen it.
I didn’t say anything to you as you was not close to me.
I reported it to Mens captain and Competition Secretary
We decided not to say anything unless you won or came 2nd.
If you insist that you didn’t do this then I apologise.
I am and no one else has called you a cheat but I saw what I saw.
I’m sorry if you have had phone calls from other members the committee have not told anyone and if asked would have said there was a card infringement.
If this has caused a sour feelings between us then I am truly sorry.


Removed individual names just in case there is anyone known to them from the club in question

 

[IanMcC]

Thoughts are simple

Even if the player did look to mark his ball he does not need to confirm with any player partners


As long as the ball is replaced in the same place and any penalty shot is added ( if taken an unplayable) or if it’s preferred lies then it doesn’t matter. No requirement to mark

Everything else - the committee member should have said something at the time and imo the handicap/competition committee/member should grow a pair and tell him to do one

Your PP should request a meeting with the Comp committee and this other committee member and ask to discuss the situation

All of this.
It sounds like it will be fruitless, however, as the committee is obviously full of tossers.
He should then contact the County representative for a meeting, and you should go with him as a witness.

It is beyond belief that this happened without the committee speaking to the player first.

 

[BiMGuy]

Sounds like your committee are useless.

I’d be writing a formal complaint.

 

[Steven Rules]

Committee Procedures 6C(6) provides guidance to the Committee on resolving questions of fact.

 

[IanM]

If they are accusing him of cheating, or a rule breach, the comp committee need to be calling him in. Not just disqualifying him.

At least the guy who called it had the manners to speak up.

Finding out when your name is absent from the results is a cowardly way of dealing with it.

Surely you don't publish the comp, pending investigation.

 

[Orikoru]

You can't disqualify someone based on one single eye-witness account, surely? I'd have expected a meeting to be held of all parties to discuss it. With you attending as a witness.

 

[Jason.H]

Most players don’t watch their playing partners like a hawk let alone groups on adjacent fairways. I can’t understand why anyone would call this out unless he did see someone improving his situation.
I did see a guy playing a different hole just last week look at his playing partners then swiftly moved his ball to a better lie in the rough so this does go on .

 

[IJames]

Seems daft - and wrong - action by admin to me! Player should make a big fuss! It puzzles me somewhat how the observer would even know that a penalty stroke hadn't been included in the score for the hole! And FWIW, NR recorded? Surely DQ!

 

[Colin L]

The internet's an awful place for instant reactions and judgments - witness the social media nonsense that went on regarding Collin Morikawa in the Masters with armchair jurists crying foul without any thought of establishing facts before pronouncing verdict and sentence. Assemble the available facts in this matter and what do you have? Person A says he saw Person B moving his ball to a different position. Person B says, "Oh no I didn't". Person C who was in Person A's group didn't see anything. We can't make a judgment; we shouldn't make judgment; and, the OP did not ask as to make a judgment. He just asked advice on how the player should proceed - and I think he got that in amongst the noisy stuff.

 

[BiMGuy]

Does the eventual winner of the division have any connection to the committee members involved?

 

[MACM85]

Does the eventual winner of the division have any connection to the committee members involved?

The eventul winner was the ex captain of a couple of years ago. However I wouldn't say that would sway the decision as the person in question is often picked on the team for when we play other clubs.

 

[chrisd]

We had a low handicap player who was a well known cheat, won many board comps but never got called out, I absolutely saw him cheat once when I was playing a hole not too far from where he was. Even though he was well known, and in recent times confirmed to me as a cheat by his regular playing partner it is often difficult to call it. Maybe he did cheat or had a brain fart and did something wrong without realising it.

I think maybe he should decide what exactly happened and ask for a club meeting if he's adamant that he did nothing wrong, as it's one thing being dq'd but another thing being thought of as a cheat.

 

[IanM]

The internet's an awful place for instant reactions and judgments - witness the social media nonsense that went on regarding Collin Morikawa in the Masters with armchair jurists crying foul without any thought of establishing facts before pronouncing verdict and sentence. Assemble the available facts in this matter and what do you have? Person A says he saw Person B moving his ball to a different position. Person B says, "Oh no I didn't". Person C who was in Person A's group didn't see anything. We can't make a judgment; we shouldn't make judgment; and, the OP did not ask as to make a judgment. He just asked advice on how the player should proceed - and I think he got that in amongst the noisy stuff.

Absolutely... but it is appropriate to comment on "process."

1) Did he cheat or have a rule infraction? No idea I wasn't there.
2) Is is right that that the first he knew of it was when his name was absent from the results sheet? (assuming that's what happened) Crikey, NO!

Lodge a complaint and get it sorted out.