World Handicap System (WHS)

[rulefan]

So, is this guidance going to be made crystal clear anywhere?

Of course they won't. When they publish the official Rules later in the year they will deliberately miss this rule out so that committees can take great pleasure in DQing everyone from the competition but adjust their handicaps anyway.

 

[rulefan]

You say Index makes absolutely no contribution to any calculation when you enter scores. True, directly anyway. But, surely same can be said about course handicap?

CH is the one that tells you where strokes are received. As required by the Rules of Golf.

 

[rulefan]

If in future players have to log in to a PSI terminal to pre-register and figure out their handicap Index, Course Handicap and Playing Handicap or whatever is required to go on their scorecard , it's going to be bedlam.

Why would they need to do that? The cards could be prepared and printed before play as now. The details preprinted on the card or on sticky labels.

 

[Imurg]

A sizable chunk of competitions are not pre-drawn. They work on a roll up basis so pre printing of cards cant happen.
Pretty sure there no pre printing of cards at my new club - no sign of labels or such like.
People write their own cards out so will need to know exactly what to and what not to put on the card..
I predict a riot...

 

[doublebogey7]

CH is the one that tells you where strokes are received. As required by the Rules of Golf.

I just dont get this, the rules require that the player ensures that their handicap is written on the scorecard. The number required to directly calculate the score is currently not required to be written on the card i.e.the three quarter allowance in four ball.

I'd also question whether England Golf are the right authority for giving advice on what is a rules, than than handicapping, issue.

 

[rulefan]

I guess Apps may become quite an important tool in handicapping, and be easy for a player to get their, or anybody elses Index if required. Maybe they'll even automatically work out a course handicap and playing handicap as well.

Why on earth do you suppose an app wouldn't do that? If you've recognised the need it's already been invented. and probably in production.
I may have rationalised that PH was key but understand and accept the explanation for CH but I have consistently said that apps will be available to tell the player everything he needs. They may well appear on new GPS devices sooner rather than later

 

[rulefan]

I just dont get this, the rules require that the player ensures that their handicap is written on the scorecard. The number required to directly calculate the score is currently not required to be written on the card i.e.the three quarter allowance in four ball.

I'd also question whether England Golf are the right authority for giving advice on what is a rules, than than handicapping, issue.

Fourball is not an authorised format for handicapping. However, the %age allowance may be printed at the club's choice.
Incidentally the fourball strokeplay allowance is 85%. Matchplay is 90%
The rule re handicap on the card is a Rule of Golf. EG are not giving advice, simply conforming to the RoG

 

[rulefan]

A sizable chunk of competitions are not pre-drawn. They work on a roll up basis so pre printing of cards cant happen.
Pretty sure there no pre printing of cards at my new club - no sign of labels or such like.
People write their own cards out so will need to know exactly what to and what not to put on the card..
I predict a riot...

My club has just introduced label printers, giving all the details that are currently entered manually. They sit next to the Entry/PSI terminals.
Some comps are preprinted and attached to cards, others or supplementaries are printed on demand.

 

[rulefan]

Rant Alert

This whole thread is beginning to make me worry about the state of this country. Other countries have being managing the apparent complexities of this or very similar systems for years. It appears that many clubs and their members have not yet appreciated that the world has moved on. Although they can cope with Alexa, SatNav, Smart Meters and Smartphones in the rest of their lives, it is being suggested that once they walk through the entrance of a golf club they will want to revert to the 19th century. Or is it thought that clubs (ie members) will not pay for the kit that is the equivalent of the cost of subscribing to Sky so they can watch TV rather than play golf. Do people really believe that Brits are to lazy to get to the club a minute early to get have their card printed or to get the details off their phone before leaving home. Or too dumb to recognise most of the system is under the bonnet and they never need to venture underneath.

Whilst I'm in rant mode, why can't people wait a bit longer for the details. I have explained before that EG and CONGU are making sure that they are selecting the right 'menu options' for our golfing environment. We are the last major authority to implement so the options in use are being evaluated by observing other authorities. It will all come together well in time for November. I believe the information packs for club administrators to present to members will be far better that the stuff at the seminars. And finally, if much of the detail is issued too soon (ie early this year) most people will forget it by November or spend the whole of the playing season arguing instead of playing golf under the current system

 

[rulefan]

I wonder how many were aware that the authors of the RoG clearly anticipated the situation over a year ago.

Definition: Scorecard
It may be in any paper or electronic form approved by the Committee that allows:

• The player’s score to be entered for each hole,
• The player’s handicap to be entered, if it is a handicap competition, and
• The marker and the player to certify the scores, and the player to certify his or her handicap in a handicap competition, either by physical signature or by a method of electronic certification approved by the Committee.

Such electronic devices are already in use and obviate the need to have a printer of any type.

 

[Swango1980]

Of course they won't. When they publish the official Rules later in the year they will deliberately miss this rule out so that committees can take great pleasure in DQing everyone from the competition but adjust their handicaps anyway.

Rulefan, the problem is, you seem to take quite a patronising attitude to your answers, it is not exactly helpful.

Just because you seem to think everything will work out without any hiccups, that doesn't mean it will. Even in this thread about which handicap should be on card, you couldn't even give a definitive answer to begin with, which is why it has continued. Then, England Golf must have told you personally, gave you an answer that conflicted with your original answer, and now we are all stupid because it is still somewhat confusing.

You also need to remember, I believe you've been close to people who have been directly involved in this WHS. Perhaps you have been involved. 99.9% of golfers dont have this benefit, so you shouldn't presume we'll all just get it as soon as we have to deal with it.

Also, I'm pretty sure the rest of the world have used a system much similar to WHS than we have. So, we will have more to get used to.

 

[Swango1980]

CH is the one that tells you where strokes are received. As required by the Rules of Golf.

That is just wrong. The Playing Handicap tells you this. Unless you are saying the shots you get in a competition are meaningless to the RoG.

 

[Swango1980]

Why on earth do you suppose an app wouldn't do that? If you've recognised the need it's already been invented. and probably in production.
I may have rationalised that PH was key but understand and accept the explanation for CH but I have consistently said that apps will be available to tell the player everything he needs. They may well appear on new GPS devices sooner rather than later

Please tell me where I said they won't do that.

I was basically saying they will do that. However, I simply didn't 100% say they will do that, because I have no idea what they will look like. And, knowing if I DID say they 100% do that, someone like yourself could then jump down my throat if, in actual fact, they didn't do that now, and try and make me look stupid for being overly certain on something I know little about

Are you intentionally trying to be confrontational?

 

[rulefan]

I'm sorry you feel I am being patronising or confrontational. I have always tried to be helpful and given that I do sometimes manage to get an inside track, I pass on what I hope is useful.
In this case I misread the runes but EG have now given me the ruling. HI, CH and optionally PH.

My frustration is caused by too many people trying to anticipate the details, having been warned that the seminars were only an introduction for club administrators.
Recognising inter alia that CONGU's move was more complicated than some others, EG et al have spent time and effort in getting it right for us. They have evaluated the reasons why different authorities have chosen particular options and why, statistically and administratively we might choose other or the same options.
We don't go live until November, there is plenty of time to get the details out in a user digestible form before then. They want to get it right. The 2019 RoG had flaws involving high profile incidents that had to be sorted out in the first months of 2019.
The kit is already available, the new CDH software (managing the handicap calculations and score recording) is already running, I understand the front end software (competition management) vendors have the interfaces in hand.

I get a sense of 'it's new, our members won't stand for it', 'our members don't want/understand technology', 'it's worked well since Adam was a lad', 'it won't work for our members, we are not in the US', 'our members won't understand the calculations'. No doubt there will be start up issues. But I reckon they will not be computer or software problems, but lack of club planning, poor club administration and members of the awkward squad golf society. I haven't got a crystal ball but if people don't want it to work, it won't.

 

[Swango1980]

I'm sorry you feel I am being patronising or confrontational. I have always tried to be helpful and given that I do sometimes manage to get an inside track, I pass on what I hope is useful.
In this case I misread the runes but EG have now given me the ruling. HI, CH and optionally PH.

My frustration is caused by too many people trying to anticipate the details, having been warned that the seminars were only an introduction for club administrators.
Recognising inter alia that CONGU's move was more complicated than some others, EG et al have spent time and effort in getting it right for us. They have evaluated the reasons why different authorities have chosen particular options and why, statistically and administratively we might choose other or the same options.
We don't go live until November, there is plenty of time to get the details out in a user digestible form before then. They want to get it right. The 2019 RoG had flaws involving high profile incidents that had to be sorted out in the first months of 2019.
The kit is already available, the new CDH software (managing the handicap calculations and score recording) is already running, I understand the front end software (competition management) vendors have the interfaces in hand.

I get a sense of 'it's new, our members won't stand for it', 'our members don't want/understand technology', 'it's worked well since Adam was a lad', 'it won't work for our members, we are not in the US', 'our members won't understand the calculations'. No doubt there will be start up issues. But I reckon they will not be computer or software problems, but lack of club planning, poor club administration and members of the awkward squad golf society. I haven't got a crystal ball but if people don't want it to work, it won't.

Truthfully, in all honesty, your information is useful. I've found it invaluable in getting my knowledge as to where it is now. I'm also not as concerned as what I was months ago about it's implementation. But, only because I asked questions to death, and by continuing to ask, little by little I've been reassured in many aspects it wont be as bad as my worst case scenarios.

I also massively respect the work the handicapping people have done. No doubt, once they started this years ago, they've had many debates and compromises as to how this will be implemented, and I expect that they will have come up with something very good in the end.

But, most of the rest of us are just trying to get our heads around it. This site, perhaps, could be the greatest source of information up to this point, along with the workshops. I actually went into that workshop and knew everything that was presented, except for ESR. And, everything I knew came from this site, much if which you were main contributor.

But, when things are different, people are naturally going to question it. And, may take time to get used to it. But, by having a rant or giving sarcastic answers will not help and sadly it may deflect them away from your very useful answers. This particular debate was interesting, because basically nobody could give the right answer until you could get the answer from contacts at EG, and even then it wasnt really the answer most expected.

I dont think we need to worry that people wont give it a chance to work. Because, they'll just have to. And, sooner rather than later, regardless of our concerns now, it will work. We will get used to it. It may evolve. And life will go on.

 

[jim8flog]

Well..The computer is going to have to be permanently turned on and the players are going to have to have access by a technology solution that is located in a public area of the clubhouse.

(We have exactly the same situation at my club so whilst my answer was deliberately facetious in its nature, I actually empathise with your situation)[/QUOTE

We have a networked computer system and the servers are located in the main office. When there is a problem with the network it can only be resolved in the office and the office staff do not start work till well after a comp would have started.

One of the problems we frequently have is people think the lounge computer problems can be solved by turning it off and back on again or hitting reset. This disconnects it from the network and it can only be re-intialised by the office.

 

[nickjdavis]

Why would they need to do that? The cards could be prepared and printed before play as now. The details preprinted on the card or on sticky labels.

Well....we are constantly being told that players MUST pre-register their round before going out to play. I take it they would still need to do this even if a card has been prepared for them in advance?

Regarding your rant ...

I recognise my self as someone who you indirectly may be alluding to. I understand now that the recent presentations were not for wider consumption....this was not clear at the time and the wooliness of the knowledge of the material presenters gave my handicap secretary and myself a good deal of concern. but that is bye the bye, we know there is stuff still being decided and more "shareable" information will be forthcoming down the line.

However...contrary to what you may think...we do want it to work, we do want to embrace it and we are happy to pay for what we need. But it is the planning we are undertaking as a committee that is driving our quest for greater understanding. We want to make the implementation of the WHS a success but, we are acutely aware of a number of issues that are specific to our clubs current technological and physical infrastructure that mean we need to have as clear an understanding of the processes that must be implemented ("must" as opposed to "should" or "ideally") and what technology is going to be mandatory for us to plan successfully. We may need to do physical building work, creating (or extending an existing) a new office area where any new equipment can be securely located, along with delivering the necessary infrastructure to allow connection to whatever PSI terminals we need. Hell we may even need to implement a different broadband technology to allow the system to run, possibly something dedicated and separate from the clubs existing systems which, due to the rural location, are not necessarily the fastest/most reliable. Other clubs may not have the same issues, others will have different ones...it makes them no less valid.

November the 2nd is 8 months away, it seems a long time, but in all honesty it is not. The questions that are posed are only done so because we are seeking the information that allows us to plan to make the implementation a success. If the questioning and criticism sometimes seems overly impatient, it is only because we are well aware of how much we need to do. But to know what we need to do....we need to know what we are doing.

I've previously expressed gratitude to you for the information you provide. That gratitude remains. But just as you may know things about the system that we don't, please accept that the rest of us are aware of specific issues within our own clubs that may mean that implementation of the WHS may need a bit more work than at other places.

 

[rulefan]

Well....we are constantly being told that players MUST pre-register their round before going out to play. I take it they would still need to do this even if a card has been prepared for them in advance?

The requirement will be set by the club according to their needs and available facilities. I think a distinction has to be made between entering a competition and pre-registering for a supplementary score. The latter may be exactly what is done now through to making an entry in a smartphone app. The former would need no more than collecting ae prepared card. If technology wasn't available in the clubhouse for some reason, turning up on the tee at the right time would suffice IMO.

[/quote]But just as you may know things about the system that we don't, please accept that the rest of us are aware of specific issues within our own clubs that may mean that implementation of the WHS may need a bit more work than at other places.[/QUOTE]
Point taken. Whilst waiting for EG to come off the pot why not get your ISV to call in and brief you on what they can or will be providing in the way of front end technology support.

 

[nickjdavis]

[/quote]
Point taken. Whilst waiting for EG to come off the pot why not get your ISV to call in and brief you on what they can or will be providing in the way of front end technology support.[/QUOTE]

We have done, we know what is available from them... We just need to figure out how we implement what is available...its the "unknown extras" that is outside their control that worries us.

We will work it out, it will be a success... Simply because the right people on the committee have the desire to make it so (and that includes me!)

 

[rulefan]