World Handicap System (WHS)

[duncan mackie]

Duncan / Ger
. If you've ever read my WHS posts on any thread, .....

I believe I've read every one (unless you have obliquely slipped one into the Out of Bounds forum)

 

[Swango1980]

PS

From my very personal point of view. I'd want a card where I would have a box for Index, a box for Course Handicap and a box for Playing Handicap. In my mind, I could then at least be clear what goes in what box, and that all 3 handicap values are different. As far as the Rules are concerned, I'd want the Playing Handicap to be the vital one, as that is the one that is actually used for your score in a competition. BUT, I can also see why others may want the Index to be the vital one, as that is the first value you get, and therefore you are unlikely to fall foul of conversions or potential computer errors (if that were possible).

I'm less convinced why Course Handicap should be the vital one, given that is sort of the one hanging in the middle of all 3. The RoG don't seem to ever mention anything about a handicap related to the course, so it seems odd that that should be a vital value. Also, from rulefans confirmation, it seems that BOTH Index and Course handicaps need to be right. So, that implies that if a golfer made a silly mistake in either, they's get DQ if it was too high?

 

[Swango1980]

I have been personally on the wrong end of 2 examples where the computer calculated my handicap adjustment incorrectly, one was resolved and one was not. "That's what the computer says" is not a valid approach, sometimes computers can be wrong...

I also work in Systems Development for a living, trusting computers is almost as bad as trusting human beings!!!

I've been very reluctant to rely on a computer, for many reasons. Personally I like to have most things worked out in my head where possible, I don't like seeing things as a "black box" where I'm reliant on it without understanding it. Apart from current CSS calculation, everything else with the current handicap system is fairly obvious and can be quickly figured out (and to be honest CSS calculations are not hard, if you have the table in the CONGU manual). But, with WHS we will have no choice but to rely on a computer to work out our Indexes (I know the computer does it now now, but it is easy for a player to understand exactly how a change happened). A player will not be able to pick out their best 8 scores and average them in their head, so most will just accept what the computer tells them, while some may drill into it if they so wish. Also, many golfers may simply rely on what the computer tells them is their Playing Handicap, because even if they get their Course Handicap correct, a lot will struggle to figure out 95% of that (and many will simply have no patience to get their phone out and use the calculator if they can't do it in their head), and they may get lost anyway as they'd need to remember which % applies to which format.

So, maybe the Rules will make it clear at some point that, if the computer makes an error, it is not the Players fault. After all, they've already said that, if you were to play 2 events in one day, if you play very well in the first one, you are no longer responsible for adjusting your handicap for the second round. You can use the same Index. So, that is already a change from what we need to do currently

 

[ger147]

I've been very reluctant to rely on a computer, for many reasons. Personally I like to have most things worked out in my head where possible, I don't like seeing things as a "black box" where I'm reliant on it without understanding it. Apart from current CSS calculation, everything else with the current handicap system is fairly obvious and can be quickly figured out (and to be honest CSS calculations are not hard, if you have the table in the CONGU manual). But, with WHS we will have no choice but to rely on a computer to work out our Indexes (I know the computer does it now now, but it is easy for a player to understand exactly how a change happened). A player will not be able to pick out their best 8 scores and average them in their head, so most will just accept what the computer tells them, while some may drill into it if they so wish. Also, many golfers may simply rely on what the computer tells them is their Playing Handicap, because even if they get their Course Handicap correct, a lot will struggle to figure out 95% of that (and many will simply have no patience to get their phone out and use the calculator if they can't do it in their head), and they may get lost anyway as they'd need to remember which % applies to which format.

So, maybe the Rules will make it clear at some point that, if the computer makes an error, it is not the Players fault. After all, they've already said that, if you were to play 2 events in one day, if you play very well in the first one, you are no longer responsible for adjusting your handicap for the second round. You can use the same Index. So, that is already a change from what we need to do currently

RE. the statement in bold - absolutely not true!!! Trust me, I will 100% be doing my own calculations to check the computer calculations are accurate, and as it's only 8 then I doubt I will struggle with doing that in my head. I may well be the exception but it really isn't that hard at all, there will be no requirement to rely 100% on what the computer says.

 

[Old Skier]

Until I read this thread I thought I understood the WHS and how it worked.

 

[ger147]

Until I read this thread I thought I understood the WHS and how it worked.

I'm impatiently waiting for all of the relevant information to be published so I can get myself up to speed. The worrying thing is it sounds like the golf unions are only a few pages ahead of me...

 

[jim8flog]

You have to rely upon the computer for handicap index it can be too complex to work out in certain scenarios

e.g exceptional score adjustment, soft and hard caps.

 

[jim8flog]

and in the history of man the percentage of errors made in using such simple charts is ?

The number doesn't really matter - I hope we can all agree it's not 0 ?

only if you start with zero but there again maybe under the WHS zero does not exist.

 

[Swango1980]

RE. the statement in bold - absolutely not true!!! Trust me, I will 100% be doing my own calculations to check the computer calculations are accurate, and as it's only 8 then I doubt I will struggle with doing that in my head. I may well be the exception but it really isn't that hard at all, there will be no requirement to rely 100% on what the computer says.

I wasn't saying the maths was complicated if one wished to work it out. BUT, it would be too complicated for some to work out AND it wouldn't be practical for any player to remember all their scores. So, you'd rely on the computer to get a record of your last 20 scores, unless you jotted them down as you went along. And, as Jim says, there are other issues you'd need the computer for anyway, like the PCC adjustment for each round. And you may need to factor his soft, hard caps and maybe even ESR going the other way.

All of the above make it way too complicated for players to keep track off without relying on the computer. Only those that keep a spreadsheet going with all their scores would be able to follow what is going on and checking the system is doing it correctly. That is why I said we will have no choice in relying on the computer. By we, I meant golfers in general. But, individuals, such as you, may still wish to track all the detail independently.

 

[ger147]

You have to rely upon the computer for handicap index it can be too complex to work out in certain scenarios

e.g exceptional score adjustment, soft and hard caps.

If they ever get round to finalising how all the calculations are done and then publish it, it won't be too hard at all. The computer doesn't write its own software...

 

[ger147]

I wasn't saying the maths was complicated if one wished to work it out. BUT, it would be too complicated for some to work out AND it wouldn't be practical for any player to remember all their scores. So, you'd rely on the computer to get a record of your last 20 scores, unless you jotted them down as you went along. And, as Jim says, there are other issues you'd need the computer for anyway, like the PCC adjustment for each round. And you may need to factor his soft, hard caps and maybe even ESR going the other way.

All of the above make it way too complicated for players to keep track off without relying on the computer. Only those that keep a spreadsheet going with all their scores would be able to follow what is going on and checking the system is doing it correctly. That is why I said we will have no choice in relying on the computer. By we, I meant golfers in general. But, individuals, such as you, may still wish to track all the detail independently.

Happy to agree to disagree and leave it at that, working out the average of 8 numbers is not hard.

 

[jim8flog]

Happy to agree to disagree and leave it at that, working out the average of 8 numbers is not hard.

provided you start with the correct numbers in the first place. Under the WHS index can be corrected according to what scores you have made. This is what soft and hard capping is all about.

 

[RangeMonkey]

I’m starting to think I’ll not bother with all this handicap business, and just keep knocking it about on my own. It sounds insane.

 

[rulefan]

Seems a bit daft that of the 3 numbers that are a part of your handicap (Handicap Index, Course Handicap and Playing Handicap), the only one you don't write on your card is the actual number you deduct from your gross score to get your net score.

That is not correct. There is more to it than you have identified. The Course Handicap is calculated by applying Slope to the Index. Your nominal net score (ie Gross - Course Rating) has to be 'de-sloped' to calculate your Score Differential for handicap purposes. That is the figure used to determine you best 8 etc.

The first step (ie before play) gives you any extra shots you need to compensate for the difficulty of the course. The last step (ie after play) adjusts your score to relate it to a 'standard' course.

 

[ger147]

provided you start with the correct numbers in the first place. Under the WHS index can be corrected according to what scores you have made. This is what soft and hard capping is all about.

Yeah I know about soft and hard capping. Human beings have to write the software and human beings have to test the software to ensure the calculations are correct. And as it's just arithmetic, it's not that hard to work it out for yourself assuming the info re. how all the calculations are done is available. So it's simply not true to state you will have to rely on a computer, you won't...

 

[rulefan]

My issue with that response is I (the golfer) am still responsible for ensuring the correct handicap information is entered on my card. If I don't understand how the system works how will I be able to spot any errors that may crop up from time to time. Blindly trusting "that's what the computer says" is not an adequate approach IMO.

If the computer says 'x' and you use 'x' you will not be penalised if the figure should really have been 'y'.

 

[ger147]

That is not correct. There is more to it than you have identified. The Course Handicap is calculated by applying Slope to the Index. Your nominal net score (ie Gross - Course Rating) has to be 'de-sloped' to calculate your Score Differential for handicap purposes. That is the figure used to determine you best 8 etc.

The first step (ie before play) gives you any extra shots you need to compensate for the difficulty of the course. The last step (ie after play) adjusts your score to relate it to a 'standard' course.

Whether it is correct or not rather depends on which net score you are referring to. I was referring to the net score in the competition you are playing in, which presumably would not be de-sloped to determine the competition results? I appreciate it is de-sloped for use in your handicap calculation but not for the results of competitions?

Which all kind of reinforces my original point above i.e. it doesn't seem particularly well thought out with the normal handicap golfer in mind...

 

[ger147]

If the computer says 'x' and you use 'x' you will not be penalised if the figure should really have been 'y'.

Are the Rules of Golf being updated to say that?

 

[rulefan]

You missing the point - I (the golfer) am responsible for ensuring the correct handicap information is on my card. If the computer, for whatever reason on a given day gives me incorrect information which I then put on my card, it's MY fault and I can be DQ'd. My gross score is irrelevant, that's a red herring. It doesn't matter what I score on any hole, if the handicap information on my card is wrong I the player am responsible.

No you can't. It will be deemed to be a Committee Error.

 

[Swango1980]

Happy to agree to disagree and leave it at that, working out the average of 8 numbers is not hard.

I already agreed with you in the first line of my last comment (where I said the maths was not complicated).

What myself and jim were saying, was that you'd need to be able to extract the correct numbers to begin with, and make all the necessary adjustments. You'd need to:

• Keep a record of all 20 scores
• Make gross adjustments to those to account for any very big hole scores
• Find out the PCC for each round
• Record the CR for each round to compare to adjusted gross score
• Calculate, for each round, the difference between your adjusted gross score and CR AND multiple by 113/Slope
• Select the best 8 scores of those, and average them

Meanwhile, you'd also need to check the following:

• Identify if there is a need to apply soft cap, and adjust if necessary
• Identify if there is a need for hard cap, and adjust if necessary
• Identify if there is a need for ESR, and if so apply that adjustment to all previous 20 scores

So, it isn't exactly just working out an average of 8 scores. You'd need to have all the data to begin with. You'd need to do the maths to convert that data into the values you need to get your 8 scores you want to average. Then you may even need to process further if any of the other adjustments are applicable.

Are you saying that is is reasonable for most golfers to store all that information in their head and then calculate it in their head. I think most people will rely on a computer for at least part of this processing?