World Handicap System (WHS)

[ger147]

No you can't. It will be deemed to be a Committee Error.

Are the Rules of Golf being updated to say that? At the moment, they state I the player am responsible for ensuring the correct handicap information is on my card.

 

[rulefan]

Madness....
so a player who knows his handicap index (looks it up) but makes a mistake in the calculation of his course handicap (which the computer will ignore anyway and correctly use, and calculate, a playing handicap for the stroke play event he was in from its records - and that figure may not be the same) will be DQ if the figure he calculates and puts on his card would have given him an additional stroke that he didn't actually get because the computer knew better....
Anyone believe that this won't bite a few times in practice (with a rather negative impact) ?

Why would he calculate is CH if he is using a computer. When he enters the comp, the computer will tell him his Course Handicap and Playing Handicap.

 

[ger147]

Why would he calculate is CH if he is using a computer. When he enters the comp, the computer will tell him his Course Handicap and Playing Handicap.

Arrive at the course to sign in, terminal in the pro shop isn't working. Only 15 mins to tee time, already has his golf shoes on so heads to the 1st tee.

Plays 18 holes and finishes up. Heads into clubhouse, the terminal there isn't working either. "Just put your card in the box", but what do I put on my card?

Happens regularly up and down the land every weekend, 100% reliance on computers is going to be painful in a lot of clubs...

 

[rulefan]

I have been personally on the wrong end of 2 examples where the computer calculated my handicap adjustment incorrectly, one was resolved and one was not. "That's what the computer says" is not a valid approach, sometimes computers can be wrong...

I also work in Systems Development for a living, trusting computers is almost as bad as trusting human beings!!!

If you have worked in that environment for long you will know GIGO. I would bet that the 'wrong' calculation was based on wrong data or the programmer/coder getting the formula wrong. As an ex Systems Director (originally programmer) and having been associated with handicap systems providers for many years, I have never experienced a computer program producing a wrong answer to a calculation yet.

 

[ger147]

If you have worked in that environment for long you will know GIGO. I would bet that the 'wrong' calculation was based on wrong data or the programmer/coder getting the formula wrong. As an ex Systems Director (originally programmer) and having been associated with handicap systems providers for many years, I have never experienced a computer program producing a wrong answer to a calculation yet.

Unfortunately I've never been able to examine the code for the software that did the calculation but having been able to see what was input it can only have been an error in the code. Sadly my handicap secretary refused to adjust my handicap to correct the error despite having the actual card from the away comp as well as screenshots of the input from the away club.

 

[rulefan]

Arrive at the course to sign in, terminal in the pro shop isn't working. Only 15 mins to tee time, already has his golf shoes on so heads to the 1st tee.

Plays 18 holes and finishes up. Heads into clubhouse, the terminal there isn't working either. "Just put your card in the box", but what do I put on my card?

Whatever Course Handicap the chart says for his Handicap Index.

But Duncan's question said he looked up his Index. Where?

 

[ger147]

Whatever Course Handicap the chart says for his Handicap Index.

I'll stop now, don't start me on Noticeboards...

 

[Swango1980]

I'll stop now, don't start me on Noticeboards...

Haha. So, you don't trust Computers. You don't trust Noticeboards. Good luck come November . My instinct has always been that quite a few golfers will struggle to adapt to all this malarkey, I think you are my perfect case study.

 

[upsidedown]

Just my two penneth but in six years in NZ 7 years ago , not once was I DQ'd for an incorrect handicap on my card.You entered your CDH number and the computer/printer did the rest. I have every confidence the systems in place now will have advanced from what they were 7 years ago when we left.
What does worry me is that CONGU appeared to be miles behind NZ in computers / technology when we returned 7 years ago !

 

[rulefan]

Just my two penneth but in six years in NZ 7 years ago , not once was I DQ'd for an incorrect handicap on my card.You entered your CDH number and the computer/printer did the rest. I have every confidence the systems in place now will have advanced from what they were 7 years ago when we left.
What does worry me is that CONGU appeared to be miles behind NZ in computers / technology when we returned 7 years ago !

Yes, I should have mentioned NZ. They have been the pacesetters. It may be of interest to know that the company behind the NZ software system are doing the 'back office' handicap management system for England, Ireland and Wales. Scotland is ploughing its own furrow.

 

[nickjdavis]

I'm really looking forward to 100 golfers all trying to access the club computer system simultaneously to find their HI, CH, PH or whatever, before heading off to their allocated tee for a shotgun start.

 

[rulefan]

I'm really looking forward to 100 golfers all trying to access the club computer system simultaneously to find their HI, CH, PH or whatever, before heading off to their allocated tee for a shotgun start.

Do you have many shotgun starts with 100 players? 5 on each tee? Do they manage to finish before dark?

Why can't they check before they leave home?

But how do they register now?

 

[upsidedown]

I'm really looking forward to 100 golfers all trying to access the club computer system simultaneously to find their HI, CH, PH or whatever, before heading off to their allocated tee for a shotgun start.

We had 100 golfers sign in on the PSI for a shotgun with no issues

 

[jim8flog]

Why would he calculate is CH if he is using a computer. When he enters the comp, the computer will tell him his Course Handicap and Playing Handicap.

At moment the most of our comps are sign in the proshop (hand written form ) or comps book in the locker room and enter on to the computer when round is completed. Some comps start before the proshop or office is open. So how can a computer give them a course or playing handicap before they start playing?

 

[duncan mackie]

Why would he calculate is CH if he is using a computer. When he enters the comp, the computer will tell him his Course Handicap and Playing Handicap.

People enter competitions many months ahead of their tee time.
Clubs tend to print pre printed scorecards the day before a club competition (we do, and everyone who's raised issues around the subject for the last couple of years does the same).
A process based on a club printing a scorecard on the day of a comp is flawed - most won't have anyone there to do it.
So on the day I get my card and play golf. When I return my card I will accept whatever the computer tells me - which makes a mockery of having to enter anything other than the base figure I'm used to referencing for use anywhere, at anytime, in any event - my handicap index.
Everything else is derived from that.
It is MY handicap; CH is my handicap from those tees on that course; PH is my course handicap in that competition.

 

[rulefan]

People enter competitions many months ahead of their tee time.
Clubs tend to print pre printed scorecards the day before a club competition (we do, and everyone who's raised issues around the subject for the last couple of years does the same).
A process based on a club printing a scorecard on the day of a comp is flawed - most won't have anyone there to do it.
So on the day I get my card and play golf. When I return my card I will accept whatever the computer tells me - which makes a mockery of having to enter anything other than the base figure I'm used to referencing for use anywhere, at anytime, in any event - my handicap index.
Everything else is derived from that.
It is MY handicap; CH is my handicap from those tees on that course; PH is my course handicap in that competition.

The only handicap that the RoG requires to be on the card is defined in the RoG. Which handicap satisfies that definition? The CH.

You don't need to know your Index unless it changes after you get your card and then it it doesn't really matter because the system has all the correct information. Your Index makes absolutely no contribution to any calculation when you enter your scores

I think you may be surprised by the large number of clubs that do not currently have the facility to print cards or labels.
But if you presently have preprinted cards what do you do now if you played the previous day but after the cards were printed
If you don't have an issued card, check out your Index on an app or terminal. Once you know your Index look at the chart before you play.

It all is happening around the world already and will be here in November. Nothing remains static in this world, nor in the game of golf.

 

[Swango1980]

The only handicap that the RoG requires to be on the card is defined in the RoG. Which handicap satisfies that definition? The CH.

You don't need to know your Index unless it changes after you get your card and then it it doesn't really matter because the system has all the correct information. Your Index makes absolutely no contribution to any calculation when you enter your scores

I think you may be surprised by the large number of clubs that do not currently have the facility to print cards or labels.
But if you presently have preprinted cards what do you do now if you played the previous day but after the cards were printed
If you don't have an issued card, check out your Index on an app or terminal. Once you know your Index look at the chart before you play.

It all is happening around the world already and will be here in November. Nothing remains static in this world, nor in the game of golf.

You say Index makes absolutely no contribution to any calculation when you enter scores. True, directly anyway. But, surely same can be said about course handicap?

 

[nickjdavis]

Do you have many shotgun starts with 100 players? 5 on each tee? Do they manage to finish before dark?

Why can't they check before they leave home?

But how do they register now?

5 on each tee? Finish before dark? Don't be facetious...we send two groups off 7 tees. 100 player shotguns are not unusual. 9am start we are finished by 2pm. Happens 3 times a year.

Entry fee has been paid in advance, they register today by walking up to a table where all the scorecards are pre-prepared and pick up their card. Sometimes one player will collect all the cards for a group if they know all players are present. Player takes his card ...his name is ticked off the start sheet by a committee member.

If in future players have to log in to a PSI terminal to pre-register and figure out their handicap Index, Course Handicap and Playing Handicap or whatever is required to go on their scorecard , it's going to be bedlam.

 

[nickjdavis]

At moment the most of our comps are sign in the proshop (hand written form ) or comps book in the locker room and enter on to the computer when round is completed. Some comps start before the proshop or office is open. So how can a computer give them a course or playing handicap before they start playing?

Well..The computer is going to have to be permanently turned on and the players are going to have to have access by a technology solution that is located in a public area of the clubhouse.

(We have exactly the same situation at my club so whilst my answer was deliberately facetious in its nature, I actually empathise with your situation)

 

[Swango1980]

Well..The computer is going to have to be permanently turned on and the players are going to have to have access by a technology solution that is located in a public area of the clubhouse.

(We have exactly the same situation at my club so whilst my answer was deliberately facetious in its nature, I actually empathise with your situation)

I do get nervous if we need to rely on our computer working before players tee off. It doesn't always play ball. But, I suppose we'll just have to give it a chance and see how it goes.

I guess Apps may become quite an important tool in handicapping, and be easy for a player to get their, or anybody elses Index if required. Maybe they'll even automatically work out a course handicap and playing handicap as well.

But, going back to which handicap should appear on the card. Rulefan has said England Golf said it is Index and Course (although before this post, if I interpreted correctly, even Rulefan incorrectly thought it should be Playing). It is obvious that, the rules of golf themselves do not make this clear at all. Otherwise we'd not be having this discussion. So, is this guidance going to be made crystal clear anywhere? Otherwise, no player or committee up and down the country will have a clue unless they stumble across rulefan post on this thread.