World Handicap System (WHS)

[Swango1980]

Apologies. Don't fully understand. When you say subtract the lowest is it now 100% of difference from lowest, not 9/10 as it was?

I suspect you just do the 90% from the start, then that is that. There would be little point doing another calculation after because you'd be doing 2 calculations which could simply be done in one step

 

[rulefan]

Apologies. Don't fully understand. When you say subtract the lowest is it now 100% of difference from lowest, not 9/10 as it was?

Yes. Difference from the lowest Playing Handicap. The 90% was done when you calculated the Playing Handicaps. You don't have another 90%.

 

[nickjdavis]

I can confirm that all the front end ISV systems (IG, HM, V1 etc) will do all the appropriate Playing Handicap calculations automatically at the point of registration, for both competition and general play.

So what would the course handicap tables be used for?

 

[jim8flog]

You calculate each player's Playing Handicap (ie applying the 90%) . Then go from the lowest.

That again is not what we were shown.

Matchplay was 100% of a players own course handicap.

 

[IanMcC]

Yes. Difference from the lowest Playing Handicap. The 90% was done when you calculated the Playing Handicaps. You don't have another 90%.

That is quite a radical change. Previously the lowest handicapper lost nothing. Now the starting threshold is moved down 10%. This must favour the lower handicapped team in the long run, surely, as they will give away less shots.

 

[IanMcC]

That again is not what we were shown.

Matchplay was 100% of a players own course handicap.

I believe singles matchplay is 100%. Pairs is different.

 

[jim8flog]

So what would the course handicap tables be used for?

I have also made the same comment there appears to be very little gained from charts and they would also have to be very extensive to cover all the different formats of play.
From the charts for actual allowances we were shown you need to know or work 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 and 95% of a decimal number covering all decimal points.
Changing the rules of golf in 2019 was to make it much easier now they want to make it more complicated.

In the office the manager and I were working both ways round for the example shown in the slides and it makes a whole shot difference between the two methods.

 

[jim8flog]

I would add that I find the reliance on a computer system to do it for you somewhat disturbing.

Where I play competitions and matches will start before the office and the pro shop are even open. We do have a computer in the lounge but sometimes this has accidentally been turned off or some non computer literate person has caused it to crash and it requires the office staff to reboot the connection to the network.

For those who worked in engineering it looks like we are all going to need a booklet like the old Zeus charts or book of mathematical tables rather than a single chart to work it all out.

 

[IanMcC]

I would add that I find the reliance on a computer system to do it for you somewhat disturbing.

Where I play competitions and matches will start before the office and the pro shop are even open. We do have a computer in the lounge but sometimes this has accidentally been turned off or some non computer literate person has caused it to crash and it requires the office staff to reboot the connection to the network.

For those who worked in engineering it looks like we are all going to need a booklet like the old Zeus charts or book of mathematical tables rather than a single chart to work it all out.

Zeus charts was exactly what I thought of.

 

[Swango1980]

That is quite a radical change. Previously the lowest handicapper lost nothing. Now the starting threshold is moved down 10%. This must favour the lower handicapped team in the long run, surely, as they will give away less shots.

Not quite, you are just doing the 90% first. The end result will still be 90% the difference of the lowest handicapper (I.e. if you take 90 % of everybodies handicap, the differences between them will also be reduced by 90%)

 

[IanMcC]

Not quite, you are just doing the 90% first. The end result will still be 90% the difference of the lowest handicapper (I.e. if you take 90 % of everybodies handicap, the differences between them will also be reduced by 90%)

Yes, but you didnt take 90% off of the lowest in the past. Nothing was taken off. So you are reducing the datum point. Therefore less shots are conceded to higher handicappers in the long run.

 

[nickjdavis]

I have also made the same comment there appears to be very little gained from charts and they would also have to be very extensive to cover all the different formats of play.
From the charts for actual allowances we were shown you need to know or work 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 and 95% of a decimal number covering all decimal points.
Changing the rules of golf in 2019 was to make it much easier now they want to make it more complicated.

In the office the manager and I were working both ways round for the example shown in the slides and it makes a whole shot difference between the two methods.

All players want to do is to quickly look up their handicaps and work out how many shots they get. Today its easy....just look up your handicap on the noticeboard and do some SIMPLE calculations on a whole number

Now you need to take your decimalised handicap index...do some long division by 113 and some multiplication by another 3 digit number....then do some further multiplication of the resultant decimal number by several 10ths depending on format. In the context of this sentence, a simple lookup table like a "course handicap table" makes perfect sense. 5 seconds to look up your index and figure out your course handicap then do the SIMPLE maths on a whole number....and whats more three four or five players could crowd round the table at the same time.

But no....the plan seems to be to make it complicated. I'm wondering if its all part of a cunning plan to almost co-erce clubs who dont have one, into buying a player entry terminal in the hope that more scores get "logged"!!!

At least for us in the UK its totally new. Imagine being a continental golfer who already are used to using well established course handicap tables (I'm looking at one right now for the Nobilis Course in Turkey)....those poor beggers are going to have to suddenly throw away the tables that theyve relied on for so many years and get their calculators out.

 

[nickjdavis]

Yes, but you didnt take 90% off of the lowest in the past. Nothing was taken off. So you are reducing the datum point. Therefore less shots are conceded to higher handicappers in the long run.

Not correct.

4 golfers......6, 12, 17, 25 handicaps.....under the old system of 90% of the difference the shots would be 0, 5, 10, 17.

If you take the 0.9 off everyone first before finding the differences you get 5.4, 10.8, 15.3, 22.5 and the relative differences between these are 0, 5.4, 9.9, 17.1.....so the shots are 0,5,10 and 17. No difference.

Basically its the Mathematical Distributive Law, in that A*(B-C) = (A*B) - (A*C)

 

[Swango1980]

Yes, but you didnt take 90% off of the lowest in the past. Nothing was taken off. So you are reducing the datum point. Therefore less shots are conceded to higher handicappers in the long run.

As Nick brilliantly demonstrated, it isn't really different in the end. You are just doing the 90% bit at a different point, but result is the same. You can either change everybodies handicap by 90% first, or leave them and do 90% the difference.

If you adjusted everybodies handicap by 90%, then took 90% the difference, you would effectively be double counting the 90% at the expense of the higher handicappers.

 

[rulefan]

That again is not what we were shown.

Matchplay was 100% of a players own course handicap.

We are talking about 4BBB match play. CONGU is 90% of the difference.

 

[rulefan]

But no....the plan seems to be to make it complicated. I'm wondering if its all part of a cunning plan to almost co-erce clubs who dont have one, into buying a player entry terminal in the hope that more scores get "logged"!!!

In effect, clubs will need to install sufficient hardware and the appropriate software in order to be able to use the WHS and get used to the idea it is now 2020.
We are not talking 000's, perhaps a few hundred. It has been said before that financial assistance will be available from England Golf.
But who would benefit from clubs having to buy the extra kit? The profit from the hardware will not cover the costs the ISVs are forking out to update all their software. And certainly my club is not being charged extra by our ISV. Neither England Golf nor the R&A are getting anything out of it.
But yes, it is hoped that more scores will be logged.

 

[fenwayrich]

I went to the seminar at Hollinwell today. Having read quite extensively beforehand I found the theory behind the system relatively easy to understand. I'm not convinced that people who, for good reason, have no interest in the theory will get used to it quickly, but we shall see. Hopefully the software will do most of the work when it is up and running.

One question struck me afterwards. Players are responsible for inputting their score on the day, and their handicap record will be automatically adjusted just after midnight. If it is a competition, card checking and closing down the comp can take place anytime thereafter, as club software (ClubV1, Intelligent Golf etc), runs independently of the Central Database. Question, if there are cards that have been incorrectly input, how do these get adjusted in the player's record? Is it automatic that a club's system updates and corrects the Central Database, or is it more complicated?

 

[Swango1980]

I went to the seminar at Hollinwell today. Having read quite extensively beforehand I found the theory behind the system relatively easy to understand. I'm not convinced that people who, for good reason, have no interest in the theory will get used to it quickly, but we shall see. Hopefully the software will do most of the work when it is up and running.

One question struck me afterwards. Players are responsible for inputting their score on the day, and their handicap record will be automatically adjusted just after midnight. If it is a competition, card checking and closing down the comp can take place anytime thereafter, as club software (ClubV1, Intelligent Golf etc), runs independently of the Central Database. Question, if there are cards that have been incorrectly input, how do these get adjusted in the player's record? Is it automatic that a club's system updates and corrects the Central Database, or is it more complicated?

Good question. Just to add: what if score entered incorrectly player plays competition following day, then when their first score is corrected the third day, it is discovered they would have been playing off too high a handicap the second day?

 

[nickjdavis]

Technically....there is no need whatsoever to buy new equipment to support the WHS. The new gear is only really required to support the "pre-registration" of players intentions to go out and play and for them to be able to enter their own scores. Currently there are procedures to support this "pre-registration" whether a player is playing a supplementary or in a qualifying competition. The scores can be entered by a committee member after a round has been played. There is no real reason why these same procedures cannot carry on being used under the WHS...ergo there is no real reason to invest in a PSI terminal.

A Few Hundred £££ will put a severe dent in our committees cash reserves....but then there will also be the need to build a more permanent, secure home/office location for the handicapping computer...not to mention the networking infrastructure to link it and the PSI terminal together.

as for England Golfs financial assistance...if I remember correctly from what was said at an early presentation...this assistance was available to buy Club V1 terminals....not terminals of other ISV's.

...and are the ISVs having to really do a lot of software updating? If I understand it correctly all of the handicapping changes, course condition adjustment calculations...its all going to be managed centrally....effectively leaving the ISV's to manage something that is little more than "competition management" software. I reckon they're going to strip out a whole load of code, making their software a lot less complex and easier to maintain, so I would hope they wouldn't charge more for doing less.

 

[IanMcC]

Not correct.

4 golfers......6, 12, 17, 25 handicaps.....under the old system of 90% of the difference the shots would be 0, 5, 10, 17.

If you take the 0.9 off everyone first before finding the differences you get 5.4, 10.8, 15.3, 22.5 and the relative differences between these are 0, 5.4, 9.9, 17.1.....so the shots are 0,5,10 and 17. No difference.

Basically its the Mathematical Distributive Law, in that A*(B-C) = (A*B) - (A*C)

Brilliant. I stand corrected, and trust this works for all eventualities.