Women in men's competitions.

[Simbo]

Iv no problem with women playing in guys competitions, their handicap is calculated from reds so they should play from there, playing from the gents white tees is pointless for them.
To many people are hung up on winning competitions,getting a prize or getting their name on a board instead of just going out and playing their own game against the course and trying to better their game/handicap and enjoying their game whether it be with a junior, gent or lady in a competition. This is why I think outwith scratch events they prizes should just be token gestures. if you're only playing towards your own handicap and not a holiday in the algarve, what difference does it really make if she plays of the reds and scores the best in the competition

 

[Region3]

This is an interesting read about "womens" tee's

http://theaposition.com/larrygolfst.../are-women-getting-screwed-on-the-golf-course

I think that's ridiculous logic, for the reason Louise has already mentioned.

Nobody has a divine right to be able to reach a par 4 in 2 shots, especially if they drive the ball 140yds as quoted in the article. A lack of distance is factored into a golfer's handicap.

If you make every green reachable for the average driving distance, high handicaps would soon be cat1/cat2 and the better players would get bored really quickly.

 

[Nickrat]

The article didn't say women had a divine right to hit every GIR, it said the 5,600 yard ladies scorecard for the average women is the equivalent to an 8,400 yard course for the average man.

Some courses don't have ladies tee's, they have 4 sets of tee's for varying handicaps.

 

[doublebogey7]

All this talk of 'mens' competition, it's golf! Just call it that, a golf competition, open to all members of the golf club. Simple, and it will (should) stop all this sexist nonsense. Unless it's scratch no one is playing level so that argument is out of the water. It's 2017 for christs sake, let's start sounding like we're living in today rather than 50 years ago shall we??

It is an interesting read, although I think the logic is flawed, an average golfer isn't expected to be able to reach every green in regulation are they? That's why we have a handicapping system, and I think a course of only 4200yds is rather too short.

I would also suspect the average female golfer is even older than the average male, the average driviing distance will therefore be scewed.

 

[Copernicus]

All this talk of 'mens' competition, it's golf! Just call it that, a golf competition, open to all members of the golf club. Simple, and it will (should) stop all this sexist nonsense. Unless it's scratch no one is playing level so that argument is out of the water. It's 2017 for christs sake, let's start sounding like we're living in today rather than 50 years ago shall we??

Amen brother !!
😀😀

 

[Region3]

The article didn't say women had a divine right to hit every GIR, it said the 5,600 yard ladies scorecard for the average women is the equivalent to an 8,400 yard course for the average man.

Some courses don't have ladies tee's, they have 4 sets of tee's for varying handicaps.

Maybe "divine right" was the wrong choice of words, but it definitely suggests that a woman with an average driving distance of 140yds should be playing a course short enough so that 2 good hits has enough distance to reach the green.

"In most cases, women golfers are being asked to play courses that are more than 1,000 yards too long for them to reach greens in regulation."

"knowing that if you hit your two best shots you still couldn’t reach a par-4 in regulation. Would you still play?
I wouldn’t."

 

[Nickrat]

Our course has junior tees that are half way up the fairway, shall I suggest that they remove them because it doesn't matter if it takes 5-6 shots to get to the green as there handicap will reflect that?

 

[FairwayDodger]

This is an interesting read about "womens" tee's

http://theaposition.com/larrygolfst.../are-women-getting-screwed-on-the-golf-course

I'd probably quit playing if that came in. Or get a haircut and call myself Dave....

 

[GreggerKBR]

This is rubbish, I am a better than average woman player and some of the carries off the tee from white tees would be impossible for me, let alone others of lesser ability. The likes of FairwayDodger could compete but for the most part they are in the minority.

As previously stated by others the handicapping system and Congu rules provides for women and men to play in handicap competitions on a level playing field.

Whilst I totally agree with you I have on paradox I can't fathom.
Bearing in mind I grew up as short hitting beginner youngster regularly being whipped by a particular Mum and Daughter whose combined handicaps came to less than the fingers on my right hand... and they were off tees way shorter than mine!
I thought it was quite unfair at the time. And as is the case with young boys at my club now, I had to tee off the white tees next to the men if I wanted to play in the competition. And as a 14 year old, I could not carry the ball more than 200 yards, equally 82 yr old Mr Painter could not carry the ball more than 200 yards.

But we all had to accept our handicaps, our strengths and limitations and accept the tees of the day where just that, fair and square.
Except the ladies didn't... they had tees way shorter... and easier, regardless of their ability to capability.
Some ladies can carry it 200 and some not. Just the same as separation in ability between men - consequently scores and handicaps differ accordingly.

So why do we have "ladies" tees then? And why is if fair that a Lady who can hit it >200 should have a shorter course to play than a man who can't hit it 200 yards.

What the game has done is made shorter courses and higher handicap limits to accommodate the average lady and their comparative lack of distance and make the game more appealing. But we don't do that for adult men - they have h/c 28 limit and white tees - regardless.

If however there were only one tee, the women just all be off relatively higher handicaps. But their scores would be higher so the milestones would be harder (cat 2 to cat 1, breaking 100, 90, 80 etc.)

The issue here is the difference between those who want it "fun and fair" and those who want it "tough and challenging".

I've concluded I think that we should have a radically different handicap system and the tees should be relevant to the category of player.
But then the system we have works fine and everyone's happy enough... aren't they?

(Edit note - I'm delighted that we have this system, my Wife is new to the game and plays of ladies tees off 32 and regularly beats me. I've had some of my most enjoyable rounds of my life with her - so I am very pro ladies in golf).

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Whilst I totally agree with you I have on paradox I can't fathom.
Bearing in mind I grew up as short hitting beginner youngster regularly being whipped by a particular Mum and Daughter whose combined handicaps came to less than the fingers on my right hand... and they were off tees way shorter than mine!
I thought it was quite unfair at the time. And as is the case with young boys at my club now, I had to tee off the white tees next to the men if I wanted to play in the competition. And as a 14 year old, I could not carry the ball more than 200 yards, equally 82 yr old Mr Painter could not carry the ball more than 200 yards.

But we all had to accept our handicaps, our strengths and limitations and accept the tees of the day where just that, fair and square.
Except the ladies didn't... they had tees way shorter... and easier, regardless of their ability to capability.
Some ladies can carry it 200 and some not. Just the same as separation in ability between men - consequently scores and handicaps differ accordingly.

So why do we have "ladies" tees then? And why is if fair that a Lady who can hit it >200 should have a shorter course to play than a man who can't hit it 200 yards.

What the game has done is made shorter courses and higher handicap limits to accommodate the average lady and their comparative lack of distance and make the game more appealing. But we don't do that for adult men - they have h/c 28 limit and white tees - regardless.

If however there were only one tee, the women just all be off relatively higher handicaps. But their scores would be higher so the milestones would be harder (cat 2 to cat 1, breaking 100, 90, 80 etc.)

The issue here is the difference between those who want it "fun and fair" and those who want it "tough and challenging".

I've concluded I think that we should have a radically different handicap system and the tees should be relevant to the category of player.
But then the system we have works fine and everyone's happy enough... aren't they?

How far someone hits it is irrelevant

Everyone's Handicap is based on the tee they play regualry

A red tee may play shorter than others but then the HC will be reflective of that - is men played off that Red tee then their HC would reduce quite quickly.

All course should soon have both male and female ratings on all tees and the HCs will work themselves out from there.

The HC system we have right now for amateur golf seems to work out pretty well - there will be the odd occasions where some will see it as unfair but mostly that's down to sour grapes.

The 14 year who can't carry it 200 yards will have a HC reflective of that as will the 82 year old or the lady who can carry it 250 yards

There is also things like SSS to help balance things out.

Our mixed comps work very well - have had various winners including new high HC , ladies and also the cat 1

 

[Region3]

Our course has junior tees that are half way up the fairway, shall I suggest that they remove them because it doesn't matter if it takes 5-6 shots to get to the green as there handicap will reflect that?

If you want.

 

[GreggerKBR]

How far someone hits it is irrelevant

really?
Cool, so then let's all play off the same tees and let the handicap system work out the separation.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Our course has junior tees that are half way up the fairway, shall I suggest that they remove them because it doesn't matter if it takes 5-6 shots to get to the green as there handicap will reflect that?

Those tees are for juniors starting out. Once they get to a decent level they go to the yellows and then the whites for h/c purposes. Junior comps for little'uns will go off the blues but otherwise they will be off the whites as the adults are. When juniors want to play in adult comps, at most clubs, they will need an adult CONGU h/c and will play off the same tee as everyone else. No other allowances are made.

 

[Foxholer]

Sorry i dont get this. We play mixed comps, we walk off the green at which point the men walk to the mens tees and the women to the womens tees. The men then hit and walk up to the womens tee as they hit. Then they are all at the womens tee when the last player has hit. This should make it quicker than a normal mens 4 ball

Congratulations on getting players pretty organised! However, (without considering whether Men or Ladies play faster) it will only make it about the same speed - at best - as single sex (either Mens of Ladies) rounds. I've experiences quite a number of mixed rounds (2, 3 and 4-balls) and this has always noticeably extended the overall time compared to expectations of single sex ones. It's not only the Tee-ing where time is lost - though that is where it's most visible, but the varying distances mean there's generally a lot more stop/hit/move to next ball activity involved!

 

[TerryA]

This has been the case at Bawburgh in Norwich for over 5 years. Every Sat when there isn't a men only comp (very rare) there is an optional stableford. The ladies play off their own tees with their own handicaps but it is one competition. The results are in divisions, often 3, and occasionally a lady gets in the prizes - probably in proportion in percentage terms to the number playing. This allows men to play in the same fourballs as their wife/partner and is a very inclusive way of golf.
No-one moans about any lady coming in the prizes and this is one of the ways forward to increase lady membership for working ladies at a golf club.

 

[Nickrat]

Those tees are for juniors starting out. Once they get to a decent level they go to the yellows and then the whites for h/c purposes. Junior comps for little'uns will go off the blues but otherwise they will be off the whites as the adults are. When juniors want to play in adult comps, at most clubs, they will need an adult CONGU h/c and will play off the same tee as everyone else. No other allowances are made.

But why are the tees closer for the little ones?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I presume you are trying to make a point there. However if they want to play in the adult comps they need to play off the same tees as the adults so that way of thinking doesn't quite fit your point, I don't think. If I am wrong then I apologise.

 

[louise_a]

But why are the tees closer for the little ones?

We are putting in forward tees this year for our juniors this coming season, one reason is that a lot of our tee shots are across wide ditches and if you cant carry 90-100 yds you are in the ditches. Some of our ladies who don't hit the ball very far struggle to reach the fairway on of these holes.
It would not help the confidence of the young beginners if they were constantly hitting into the ditches.

 

[GreggerKBR]

I think this is coming to the point now, that different players are in different leagues, in many other sports we have different leagues.
In golf clubs you find a scratch team and h/c team etc. and sometimes A, B, C teams etc. for club matches.

The very nature of this thread indicates that there is separation in ability - regardless of gender or age.
But it doesn't go far enough in other competitions.
It seems we are stuck in wanting "serious" competitions that everybody can compete in.
That's fine but then you will have this gender and tee/ability issue.

But perhaps we need to modernise and have more competitions that are category-only specific.
And then each category can play off the same tee?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

One of the best things about golf is that people regardless of ability can play together in the same Comp - the Handicap system does all the work so that people of various abilities and sex can play in the same Comp and K/O - that is what makes golf unique and great

And you want to ruin all that by splitting up people into categories of ability and seperate comps ?

Why are people that bothered what tees overs use ? Does it make you play any different - unless it's a scratch event then the HC sorts out all the issues and levels the playing field - golf is an inclusive sport.