Why can't slope ratings be more fluid?

[Orikoru]

Players do not routinely beat their course handicaps. They never did under CONGU and they never will under WHS. The mathematics of your index being determined by the average of the best 8 from the last 20, means that no one will ever routinely beat their course handicap unless they are in a period of rapid improvement.

Surely four of your best eight score differentials will be lower than your index, so 4 of your last 20 rounds which is 1 in 5 rounds you beat your handicap. (Ok that's SD and index rather than course handicap, but I'm not doing the maths now to see if holds the same, it's late. )

 

[sunshine]

Too much weighting given to course length has lead to many short but tight and tricky courses being too low-rated, leading to situations where handicaps either travel well or badly from home courses - which I thought was the exact scenario they wanted to avoid when they devised the system of different course handicaps.

Have you ever seen a genuine scratch golfer playing a short and tight course? Mid iron off the tee, wedge into the green, they find it ridiculously easy and don’t need to hit driver and bring any trouble into play.

When it comes to scratch or plus hc golfers, the only defence this type of course has is pin positions. The green keeper can trick up the course by hiding the flags on slopes, because these golfers will find every green in regulation.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

Have you ever seen a genuine scratch golfer playing a short and tight course? Mid iron off the tee, wedge into the green, they find it ridiculously easy and don’t need to hit driver and bring any trouble into play.

When it comes to scratch or plus hc golfers, the only defence this type of course has is pin positions. The green keeper can trick up the course by hiding the flags on slopes, because these golfers will find every green in regulation.

I get the point you’re making but it’s simply not true that a scratch golfer will find every Green in regulation just because it’s a shorter course.

The average scratch player is only expected to hit 56% of GIR. Whilst they will find the course easier they will not hit every fairway or green regardless of where they play.

 

[Neilds]

Well to use myself as an example, my best three differentials are from away courses, and it's now extremely difficult for me to play to my handicap at my home course, due to it being difficult but me getting 2 less shots. So I am one that would be flagged by the system.

Could that be down to how you play your own course? As you know the course, you may be trying shots that you don’t attempt on a new course?

 

[cliveb]

Have you ever seen a genuine scratch golfer playing a short and tight course? Mid iron off the tee, wedge into the green, they find it ridiculously easy and don’t need to hit driver and bring any trouble into play

Even if that is true (which is debatable - see Lucifer's comment), it doesn't explain why the bogey rating (and hence slope) is also very low.

You have frequently been dismissive of Grims Dyke (Orikoru's course), but have you actually played it? What did you score?

 

[Orikoru]

Have you ever seen a genuine scratch golfer playing a short and tight course? Mid iron off the tee, wedge into the green, they find it ridiculously easy and don’t need to hit driver and bring any trouble into play.

When it comes to scratch or plus hc golfers, the only defence this type of course has is pin positions. The green keeper can trick up the course by hiding the flags on slopes, because these golfers will find every green in regulation.

This to me suggests the slope rating should be higher then, because a bogey golfer doesn't have the ability to play that way. Slope is meant to be the difference in difficulty between scratch and bogey, right? The tightness of fairways, the fact it's out of bounds/dead right on about five or six holes*, and those hellish greens you speak of, make it difficult for the bogey golfers, to my mind.

*I say this because the most common miss for your bogey golfer would be a slice, that's what makes it tough off the tee. But we've learned earlier in this thread that apparently bogey golfers are considered straight hitters in the ratings!?

And yes, I played with a +1.5 once at my track and he certainly didn't hit all the greens. As I recall he shot 5 or 6 over that day.

Could that be down to how you play your own course? As you know the course, you may be trying shots that you don’t attempt on a new course?

I always play sensible golf no matter where I play. I'm boring like that.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Even if that is true (which is debatable - see Lucifer's comment), it doesn't explain why the bogey rating (and hence slope) is also very low.

You have frequently been dismissive of Grims Dyke (Orikoru's course), but have you actually played it? What did you score?

I have played it - it is short , not too tight in most places , greens are the protection but again not too tricky

It’s course rating seems about right for me

 

[doublebogey7]

Not sure I understand the question - thought my post was pretty clear. I get two less shots course handicap at my home course than I do on the other courses that I've played recently, but it is not two shots easier by any means. Ergo I struggle to play to my handicap now on my home course.

So are you saying of the top 8 scores on your WHS record most are on away courses.

 

[Orikoru]

I have played it - it is short , not too tight in most places , greens are the protection but again not too tricky

It’s course rating seems about right for me

This comment is worthless, you're near enough a scratch golfer aren't you? For a bogey golfer it is hard, for the reasons I mentioned above. Hence the slope should be higher.

So are you saying of the top 8 scores on your WHS record most are on away courses.

Yeah currently my best three differentials, and my 7th best, are all from away courses. One of them was a round of 82, where I played fairly well but was only 11 over par. To roughly match that differential (10.6) at my home course I'd have to shoot 76, which I have never done.

 

[IanM]

I tend to play my best golf on a different course to my home course.

Maybe that's because it suits my eye more, my game more and has absolutely nothing to do with the slope rating.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

This comment is worthless, you're near enough a scratch golfer aren't you? For a bogey golfer it is hard, for the reasons I mentioned above. Hence the slope should be higher.

It’s not worthless when you consider the post it was replying too

And it’s very much not worthless when I use it to compare to other courses of similar nature

At our society day there which is a mix of HCs every lost at least 2 shots compared to home club yet people still were clearing 40 points because they found it easier to score

 

[doublebogey7]

This comment is worthless, you're near enough a scratch golfer aren't you? For a bogey golfer it is hard, for the reasons I mentioned above. Hence the slope should be higher.


Yeah currently my best three differentials, and my 7th best, are all from away courses. One of them was a round of 82, where I played fairly well but was only 11 over par. To roughly match that differential (10.6) at my home course I'd have to shoot 76, which I have never done.

Assuming that your have no more 7 away scores in your last 20, it does appear to be a problem for you. As others have pointed out it may just be down to how you approach different courses either consciously or sub consciously. I can't find a scorecard of your course but looking on google it could in no way be described as tight, our widest fairway is narrower than your narrowest and ours is considerably longer. There also does not seem to be many other "hazards" at the driving point of either a scratch or bogey golfer.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Assuming that your have no more 7 away scores in your last 20, it does appear to be a problem for you. As others have pointed out it may just be down to how you approach different courses either consciously or sub consciously. I can't find a scorecard of your course but looking on google it could in no way be described as tight, our widest fairway is narrower than your narrowest and ours is considerably longer. There also does not seem to be many other "hazards" at the driving point of either a scratch or bogey golfer.

Card of the Course

Grim’s Dyke is certainly one of the friendliest golf clubs in the Middlesex and the North London area. It’s a relatively small club (with just a few hundred members) which creates a convivial and sociable club environment.

www.grimsdykegolfclub.co.uk

 

[Voyager EMH]

To score 40 points on a society day of the yellows, I would have to shoot 2 under par 66 off a Handicap Index of 5.0.
This would give me a Score Differential of 0.8 which would be my lowest since June 2023

 

[timd77]

I’ve thought similar about stroke index for each hole. Everyone I play with at my course is adamant our SI18 is one of the hardest holes on the course, and if you walk off with a bogey you’re happy, even a double isn’t terrible. It’s a 250 yard par 4, an upside down bowl for a green which is approx 15 yards deep, very well placed front bunker and OOB 5 yards off the back. When you get on the green, due to the slope, it’s really hard to lag a putt, give it a little bit too much and the ball trickles on, too tentative and you’ve got the same putt again.

I would think if they could use data to work out the hardest holes based on average scoring, it would be much lower (or is it higher?).

Problem is you have the thing about each 9 holes having an even share of the hardest and easiest holes.

 

[Orikoru]

I’ve thought similar about stroke index for each hole. Everyone I play with at my course is adamant our SI18 is one of the hardest holes on the course, and if you walk off with a bogey you’re happy, even a double isn’t terrible. It’s a 250 yard par 4, an upside down bowl for a green which is approx 15 yards deep, very well placed front bunker and OOB 5 yards off the back. When you get on the green, due to the slope, it’s really hard to lag a putt, give it a little bit too much and the ball trickles on, too tentative and you’ve got the same putt again.

I would think if they could use data to work out the hardest holes based on average scoring, it would be much lower (or is it higher?).

Problem is you have the thing about each 9 holes having an even share of the hardest and easiest holes.

Stroke index is decided by the club itself though. So you can ask your committee to review the stroke indexes and that is entirely up to them. My club did a review earlier this year (or maybe last year), and they swapped 8 & 10 and a 15 & 17 around. I'm sure they just looked at the average scoring for each hole across a period of time to decide this.

 

[irip]

I’ve thought similar about stroke index for each hole. Everyone I play with at my course is adamant our SI18 is one of the hardest holes on the course, and if you walk off with a bogey you’re happy, even a double isn’t terrible. It’s a 250 yard par 4, an upside down bowl for a green which is approx 15 yards deep, very well placed front bunker and OOB 5 yards off the back. When you get on the green, due to the slope, it’s really hard to lag a putt, give it a little bit too much and the ball trickles on, too tentative and you’ve got the same putt again.

I would think if they could use data to work out the hardest holes based on average scoring, it would be much lower (or is it higher?).

Problem is you have the thing about each 9 holes having an even share of the hardest and easiest holes.

I would imagine it’s given its rating because it’s short.
At the start of the round you have however many shots your handicap gives you, if you were given a shot on this hole you would be giving up another one somewhere else.

 

[IanM]

View attachment 60185

To score 40 points on a society day of the yellows, I would have to shoot 2 under par 66 off a Handicap Index of 5.0.
This would give me a Score Differential of 0.8 which would be my lowest since June 2023

Given your ball striking, you'd be in with a shot at that!

 

[IanM]

I’ve thought similar about stroke index for each hole. Everyone I play with at my course is adamant our SI18 is one of the hardest holes on the course, and if you walk off with a bogey you’re happy, even a double isn’t terrible. It’s a 250 yard par 4, an upside down bowl for a green which is approx 15 yards deep, very well placed front bunker and OOB 5 yards off the back. When you get on the green, due to the slope, it’s really hard to lag a putt, give it a little bit too much and the ball trickles on, too tentative and you’ve got the same putt again.

All true, but virtually everyone can reach the green in "regulation!"

 

[KenL]

Stroke indices are not just about difficulty and are often set following a formula to make sure they are spread out.
1 and 2 are often in the middle of either half and holes 1, 9, 10 and 18 are often indices about the middle.
This advice was given out to clubs by Scottish golf in the past.

Our 11th hole is either our most difficult or second most difficult - index 8.
18th is the 3rd most difficult hole - imdex 10.