Wabinez
Journeyman Pro
Jan 1st 2018
WHS doesn't work
- Thread starter Captain_Black.
- Start date
Jan 1st 2018
doublebogey7
Head Pro
Why is everyone referring to a handicap limit of 56, as far as I am aware it is 54, or have I missed something again.
evemccc
Well-known member
Why shouldn’t the max handicap be 28 or 36?
It seems like a giant can-of-worms of potential and likely problems having 50-handicap golfers playing ‘competitively’
This isn’t not ‘inclusive’…
if your level is above that, you are still able to play casual games, bounce games or whatever with friends. You’re not prohibited from golf.
My own enjoyment of golf is being outside, playing against the course, being either alone or with like-minded people for a few hours doing an engrossing, very difficult sport…..v rarely do I care about beating someone unless we’re playing scratch matchplay
No other sport to my knowledge pits a 40-handicap golfer against a 5 handicap golfer in a purportedly ‘fair’ system of competition….so like I said, it’s not anti-inclusive to suggest a max 28 or 36 handicap limit, as players in the 40s and 50 handicap level are still able to play golf…just not compete. But in the real word they’re not competing
It seems like a giant can-of-worms of potential and likely problems having 50-handicap golfers playing ‘competitively’
This isn’t not ‘inclusive’…
if your level is above that, you are still able to play casual games, bounce games or whatever with friends. You’re not prohibited from golf.
My own enjoyment of golf is being outside, playing against the course, being either alone or with like-minded people for a few hours doing an engrossing, very difficult sport…..v rarely do I care about beating someone unless we’re playing scratch matchplay
No other sport to my knowledge pits a 40-handicap golfer against a 5 handicap golfer in a purportedly ‘fair’ system of competition….so like I said, it’s not anti-inclusive to suggest a max 28 or 36 handicap limit, as players in the 40s and 50 handicap level are still able to play golf…just not compete. But in the real word they’re not competing
Wabinez
Journeyman Pro
I mean...clubs can regulate max handicaps for their competitions. For board comps at my place, the handicap limit is 20. If your handicap is higher, you can play, but you will be playing off 20 in regards to the competition.
D-S
Well-known member
I don't think we should be using faults in UHS for mitigating faults in WHS - there was a massive change and that should have enabled us to make more improvements.
Not changing perceived faults inherited from UHS doesn't excuse WHS.
Not changing perceived faults inherited from UHS doesn't excuse WHS.
IanM
Journeyman Pro
- Joined
- May 18, 2009
- Messages
- 12,358
- Location
- Monmouthshire, UK via Guildford!
Our biggies are all off scratch. No messing. 
wjemather
Well-known member
Very generous of you to allow them to continue to play the game! The suggestion being that not only should higher handicappers be excluded from competing with better players, but they should be excluded from competing altogether - even against other players of similar ability? Excluding players in this way is anti-inclusive.
Anyhow, these kinds of complaints all relate to competition management NOT the handicap system. The handicap system does not mandate very low handicappers competing against very high handicappers, and no system can mitigate exceptional scores in large fields and maintain equity. Common sense dictates that competitions are either run in handicap divisions, or as separate comps for different handicap ranges.
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
That's the one that appeals to me.
Works very well in other sports where people find a level suitable for their ability.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Something I agree with. Certainly, before they get anywhere near having 20 scores on their record, I've always felt their should be a bigger initial reduction to the calculated Index, the higher than Index is. Then, let the player continue to submit more and more scores, and let it drift either way as the calculation can be considered more accurate. Otherwise, you will get clubs like my old club, who get a lot of new golfers compared to other places, and it is not uncommon for competitions to be won with whopping great scores.
Also, while I'm at it (and not really related to the subject, but greater restrictions could help alleviate a little), there was a chap at my last club who played off 8 or 9 about 3 or 4 years ago. He took a bit of time away (still playing, just not a member) as he was busy with university. He rejoined last year, and was asked to submit 3 cards for handicap. He got an Index of 20.0. Since then, he has played in 2 Texas Scrambles, 1 Pairs Trophy and one individual stableford event (the one at the club with the biggest financial reward, as it is sponsored). He has won both scrambles and the pairs competition. In the stableford, he posted on facebook that he didn't have the best round, but managed 4th out of 68 to finish in the prizes. For some reason, it didn't count for handicap. So, basically he is playing competitive golf off an official handicap index of 20.0, based on 3 scores, and pretty much odds on to win any competition he enters. No idea if he plays in team Opens
wjemather
Well-known member
Even before considering any comp results, this points to a Handicap Committee failing in its responsibilities. Questions need to be asked.
D-S
Well-known member
Not sure how to fix it but a poor performing handicap committee is and will be a weak link in any system. Often committees are run by hard working, well meaning knowledgeable people who end up doing a lot of work. When they leave the post, the void is great and takes som time to fill and for the knowledge and experience to build up and in this interim period mistakes are often made. This is a frequent occurrence in well run established clubs, at some (certainly not all) smaller, newer clubs anything and everything can and does happen.
For example we recently had to dissuade a club from introducing automatic cuts for matchplay competition winners and runners up - we only discovered the intention by accident. Without a willingness to learn and to be open to about current procedures by those involved it is difficult to educate committees.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Typo. Now corrected.
John Evans 9
Newbie
I have recently joined our Dad’s Army section. There is no problem with WHS as it seems to be largely ignored. The weekly stableford is actually run as three competitions in one.
1. SF played from official whs handicaps. Less than half of the 30 or so players enter this.
2. Every players SF score is calculated using section handicaps.
3. Play is in groups of four so there is also a 4bbb match play played in each group, from society handicaps.
For sharing out the prize money, the WHS scores are ignored. What a muddle.
Surely there is something wrong with all this. I have not been part of the section long enough to criticise. Any thoughts ?
1. SF played from official whs handicaps. Less than half of the 30 or so players enter this.
2. Every players SF score is calculated using section handicaps.
3. Play is in groups of four so there is also a 4bbb match play played in each group, from society handicaps.
For sharing out the prize money, the WHS scores are ignored. What a muddle.
Surely there is something wrong with all this. I have not been part of the section long enough to criticise. Any thoughts ?
Backache
Assistant Pro
If the company's good and the competition informal why stress it? I would just enjoy the golf and the company.
John Evans 9
Newbie
Yeah, that seems to be the general view but mixing it all up just doesn’t seem right to me.
Captain_Black.
Well-known member
The whole crux of the issue after reading virtually all the replies to this thread are.
1. England Golf have messed up big time by allowing handicaps that are way too high in the name of inclusivity that in reality are anything but.
2. England Golf have introduced a flawed handicap system which is exacerbating the situation & have basically left it to the clubs to try & mitigate the problem with sticking plaster solutions like divisions & H/C restrictions on certain events.
3. When any new system is introduced there are bound to be teething problem, England Golf have not realised their errors or done anything to adjust the system to make it fairer for all.
4. What is blatantly obvious is the need for England Golf to revisit this & to swallow their pride & admit that the system needs tweeking.
They need to reduce the maximum handicap limit back to somewhere near the previous limit or even slightly below & to reduce the 95% singles & 85% team allowances in stages until it's deemed to produce a level playing field for all handicaps.
That in my opinion would certainly go a long way to solving the current ridiculous situation that we are now in.
1. England Golf have messed up big time by allowing handicaps that are way too high in the name of inclusivity that in reality are anything but.
2. England Golf have introduced a flawed handicap system which is exacerbating the situation & have basically left it to the clubs to try & mitigate the problem with sticking plaster solutions like divisions & H/C restrictions on certain events.
3. When any new system is introduced there are bound to be teething problem, England Golf have not realised their errors or done anything to adjust the system to make it fairer for all.
4. What is blatantly obvious is the need for England Golf to revisit this & to swallow their pride & admit that the system needs tweeking.
They need to reduce the maximum handicap limit back to somewhere near the previous limit or even slightly below & to reduce the 95% singles & 85% team allowances in stages until it's deemed to produce a level playing field for all handicaps.
That in my opinion would certainly go a long way to solving the current ridiculous situation that we are now in.
IanM
Journeyman Pro
- Joined
- May 18, 2009
- Messages
- 12,358
- Location
- Monmouthshire, UK via Guildford!
@Captain_Black. You say England Golf, but it's the same I'm Wales...and probably Scotland!
Swango1980
Well-known member
Agreed, the Handicap Committee need to try and keep on top of this. However, if they are truly unware of the players history (playing in single figures), then they would need to act on other evidence. Sure, the player has won 2 scrambles, a pairs comp and come 4th in a singles. Is this enough evidence to cut this player? For all they know, it could have been the other players in the team events that were the bandits.
I would have thought the issue, in this case, is more related to the entry requirements of the competitions, rather than a failure of the handicap committee?
Wabinez
Journeyman Pro
If he has joined the same club….his playing history should still be accessible for the committee to look up….
wjemather
Well-known member
No, any issues are failures are of the handicap committee - and of those playing with the individual concerned. If a competition committee wishes to apply restrictions (limits, minimum number of scores, etc.), that is their prerogative, but failing to do so is not something for which blame can be attached - indeed, such inclusivity should be lauded not derided.
Don't forget that players are responsible for ensuring the handicaps of others are reflective of their ability by bringing things to the attention of the committee. As such, in this case, there is no excuse for the committee being unaware of a previous handicap (because it is evident that at least one other person knows about it). Additionally, if their handicap was only lapsed 3-4 years, the old record should have been revived instead of creating a new one.
