WHS doesn't work

[Imurg]

If you were a member of a club in 2018, left, and rejoined in 2022...would your handicap info have been transferred from UHS to WHS...

 

[wjemather]

If you were a member of a club in 2018, left, and rejoined in 2022...would your handicap info have been transferred from UHS to WHS...

In England, all old CDH records (both active and inactive) were migrated to WHS.

 

[rosecott]

If you were a member of a club in 2018, left, and rejoined in 2022...would your handicap info have been transferred from UHS to WHS...

Unlikely, but the club's competition/handicapping system should be able to provide evidence of his previous handicap in competitions prior to his resignation from the club.

 

[Golfnut1957]

My club is initiating divisions this season in the face of mounting unrest at the crazy scores being recorded, but divisions don't address the issue of an outright winner of a Board comp or an open unless a H/C restriction is imposed for that particular event.
Divisions are also a sticking plaster to mask an obviously flawed handicap system.
If the handicap system worked properly, there would be no need for divisions or H/C restrictions

The best player at our club occasionally plays in the three main weekly qualifiers, Medal, Stableford and Bogey as they all have divisions. He plays in Club Championship which is a scratch comp and participates in handicap knockout comps.
He will never be found in any competition which has a high handicap limit or none at all. I don't play in them either, few single handicappers do, but I always look out for the results and in particular I look for the highest placed low handicap player, they are very rarely in the top ten.
This is an observation not a complaint. It doesn't bother me one bit.

 

[Captain_Black.]

The best player at our club occasionally plays in the three main weekly qualifiers, Medal, Stableford and Bogey as they all have divisions. He plays in Club Championship which is a scratch comp and participates in handicap knockout comps.
He will never be found in any competition which has a high handicap limit or none at all. I don't play in them either, few single handicappers do, but I always look out for the results and in particular I look for the highest placed low handicap player, they are very rarely in the top ten.
This is an observation not a complaint. It doesn't bother me one bit.

Same at my club.
We have 3 or 4 players on +2 or +3
We have about a dozen from 2 to about 5 or 6
They mainly just play 1st team matches / scratch events / club champs & maybe the odd Texas Scramble, but never do they play in any net singles events, which pretty much says it all.
Probably the lowest handicappers that play in our net events are from about 8 h/c upwards & they rarely feature in the top 10.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

The whole crux of the issue after reading virtually all the replies to this thread are.

1. England Golf have messed up big time by allowing handicaps that are way too high in the name of inclusivity that in reality are anything but.

2. England Golf have introduced a flawed handicap system which is exacerbating the situation & have basically left it to the clubs to try & mitigate the problem with sticking plaster solutions like divisions & H/C restrictions on certain events.

3. When any new system is introduced there are bound to be teething problem, England Golf have not realised their errors or done anything to adjust the system to make it fairer for all.

4. What is blatantly obvious is the need for England Golf to revisit this & to swallow their pride & admit that the system needs tweeking.
They need to reduce the maximum handicap limit back to somewhere near the previous limit or even slightly below & to reduce the 95% singles & 85% team allowances in stages until it's deemed to produce a level playing field for all handicaps.
That in my opinion would certainly go a long way to solving the current ridiculous situation that we are now in.

So when I play my 37 handicapper on a even basis, you want him to concede 13 shots to make it a completely unfair contest, when we have a perfect system in place to make it fair

 

[Captain_Black.]

Yes.
Because a 37 handicap is ridiculous.
A handicap system can only cope within certain parameters, it can't be adapted to cope with people who basically can't play golf.
I've been out myself with a high 30's handicapper & tbh it's absolutely pointless.
I spent most of my time looking for their ball & wondering who he was nearly going to hit next provided he actually hit the ball.

 

[IanM]

So when I play my 37 handicapper on a even basis, you want him to concede 13 shots to make it a completely unfair contest, when we have a perfect system in place to make it fairer

Take out "perfect" and add an "er" at the end and I think you could be on to something!

I also wonder about "how high is too high" for handicaps, but much of the rest isn't all that bad, it is just different from the old system.

 

[NearHull]

From RandA Interpretations .
5
Handicap Index Calculation
5.2
Calculation of a Handicap Index
5.2a/1
Modification of a Player’s Initial Handicap Index Due to Evidence of Previous Ability
A player submits three scores to obtain an initial Handicap Index, which result in calculated Score Differentials of 15.3, 15.2 and 16.6.This would result in an initial Handicap Index of:

The Handicap Committee is aware that the player, who is rejoining a golf club after many years out of the game, had played well as a junior golfer and maintained a Handicap Indexof around 8.0.Based on the evidence available, the Handicap Committee may adjust the player’s calculated initial Handicap Index to better reflect their previously demonstrated ability.

 

[cunnini]

Genuine Question - but first a bit of background: I've joined a club beginning of December, i've put 3 cards in and been given 23.2 handicap. I told the club that 23 years ago (in between i've played once/twice a year), i got down to 9, but as i say i've hardly played for a long time. I've only played 6 rounds in the last 6 months, partly family, partly slipping a disc in early January (so 3rd card only done a week ago), and partly other sports i play on Saturday. The club i was a member of was in a completely different part of the country where i grew up and lived first 30 years of my life at.

So my questions:-
1 - i'm planning on playing mid-week medal prob mid March (earliest date i can with work) - if I play well, (one of my cards front 9 was 6 over gross), should i feel guilty that my handicap is above where i would have placed it (around 18 - shot a hole seems fair at first)?
2 - i'm inconsistent but taking lessons - so as I improve there could be step changes - reading this thread could be quite a number of people unhappy?
3 - i seem to recall all the same gripes about handicaps at the club i was a member of in the NW of England 23 years ago - why is current system viewed as more unfair? (genuine Q)

Lastly, is there a mechanism for driving a cut yourself in your index?
thx

 

[wjemather]

Yes.
Because a 37 handicap is ridiculous.
A handicap system can only cope within certain parameters, it can't be adapted to cope with people who basically can't play golf.
I've been out myself with a high 30's handicapper & tbh it's absolutely pointless.
I spent most of my time looking for their ball & wondering who he was nearly going to hit next provided he actually hit the ball.

Can you honestly not comprehend why someone might require a higher handicap beyond simply not being very good (not that that is a valid reason to refuse to allow someone to have a handicap or play competitively)?

I also don't see what your irrational hatred of bad golfers has to do with handicapping.

 

[jim8flog]

Why?
I started at 28.
Why should it be any different now?
28 is more than enough for a beginner

I know WG didn't invent WHS, but they have implemented a flawed H/C system on the back of a ridiculously inflated H/C allowance

It is not just beginners though!! You have to take in to account the decliners.

Remember the 54 came in long before the WHS

When the 54 came in we went through all of our 28/36 handicap players and virtually every one went up by some degree with the player with the biggest increase going to 39. He is still 40.

 

[Swango1980]

No, any issues are failures are of the handicap committee - and of those playing with the individual concerned. If a competition committee wishes to apply restrictions (limits, minimum number of scores, etc.), that is their prerogative, but failing to do so is not something for which blame can be attached - indeed, such inclusivity should be lauded not derided.

Don't forget that players are responsible for ensuring the handicaps of others are reflective of their ability by bringing things to the attention of the committee. As such, in this case, there is no excuse for the committee being unaware of a previous handicap (because it is evident that at least one other person knows about it). Additionally, if their handicap was only lapsed 3-4 years, the old record should have been revived instead of creating a new one.

Absolutely, I've no doubt this chap is delighted he is being included in competitions, it has proved quite profitable

It is very likely that those on the Committee have no idea he used to be at the club, or play off single figures. Therefore, they will have treated him as a new member. Sure, someone at the club could inform the Committee if they knew of his previous record, but I assume they have not given he is still off 20.0 Index. However, it is good to know that we can still accuse the Handicap Committee of failing to do their job. Rotten volunteers, the lot of them

 

[jim8flog]

How many? Genuine question, why don't I ever remember seeing a handicap above 28/36 until WHS ?

Did clubs not implement the higher limits?

It has already been said as Jan 2018 however if you were in the new higher range they were only 'Club Handicaps' and you could only enter competitions with the agreement of the club. Where I play players could play in the comp (without paying an entry fee) to enable them to submit cards but they could not win any prizes.

 

[jim8flog]

Why is everyone referring to a handicap limit of 56, as far as I am aware it is 54, or have I missed something again.

54 is the maximum Handicap Index not the maximum Course Handicap

 

[jim8flog]

Genuine Question - but first a bit of background: I've joined a club beginning of December, i've put 3 cards in and been given 23.2 handicap. I told the club that 23 years ago (in between i've played once/twice a year), i got down to 9, but as i say i've hardly played for a long time. I've only played 6 rounds in the last 6 months, partly family, partly slipping a disc in early January (so 3rd card only done a week ago), and partly other sports i play on Saturday. The club i was a member of was in a completely different part of the country where i grew up and lived first 30 years of my life at.

So my questions:-
1 - i'm planning on playing mid-week medal prob mid March (earliest date i can with work) - if I play well, (one of my cards front 9 was 6 over gross), should i feel guilty that my handicap is above where i would have placed it (around 18 - shot a hole seems fair at first)?
2 - i'm inconsistent but taking lessons - so as I improve there could be step changes - reading this thread could be quite a number of people unhappy?
3 - i seem to recall all the same gripes about handicaps at the club i was a member of in the NW of England 23 years ago - why is current system viewed as more unfair? (genuine Q)

Lastly, is there a mechanism for driving a cut yourself in your index?
thx

As a newly handicapped the club should be monitoring your scores although this probably does not happen at a lot of clubs.
Cards do not have to be from comps you can put in a card every time you play. You need at least 16 in before you H.I begins to truly reflect your ability.

If you have sufficient cards in you can request a handicap review (we ask for at least 7). If the people you play with consider your handicap to be too high they can request a review (known as peer review).

Personally I do consider the WHS to be unfair if a player is putting in 20+ cards a year.

 

[rosecott]

Absolutely, I've no doubt this chap is delighted he is being included in competitions, it has proved quite profitable

It is very likely that those on the Committee have no idea he used to be at the club, or play off single figures. Therefore, they will have treated him as a new member. Sure, someone at the club could inform the Committee if they knew of his previous record, but I assume they have not given he is still off 20.0 Index. However, it is good to know that we can still accuse the Handicap Committee of failing to do their job. Rotten volunteers, the lot of them

It is, and always has been, the job of the Handicap Committee to determine any previous handicap/playing history of any player seeking an initial handicap - a very basic step.

 

[clubchamp98]

Absolutely, I've no doubt this chap is delighted he is being included in competitions, it has proved quite profitable

It is very likely that those on the Committee have no idea he used to be at the club, or play off single figures. Therefore, they will have treated him as a new member. Sure, someone at the club could inform the Committee if they knew of his previous record, but I assume they have not given he is still off 20.0 Index. However, it is good to know that we can still accuse the Handicap Committee of failing to do their job. Rotten volunteers, the lot of them

Surely this should be asked in the interview to join the club.

I did ask the question a long time ago, and was assured the workload of the Handicap Comittiee would not go up.
This given what is going on has proven wrong .As it’s all their fault now.

 

[clubchamp98]

It is, and always has been, the job of the Handicap Committee to determine any previous handicap/playing history of any player seeking an initial handicap - a very basic step.

Or the responsibility of said player to inform the club of this.!

 

[rosecott]

Or the responsibility of said player to inform the club of this.!

Experience says that the question has to be posed.