WHS doesn't work

[jim8flog]

What sort of golf club is this? Who runs it? Who organises comps? Who organises anything?

Hardly. If they are concerned with handicaps who manages the comps? If they don't run comps why are they concerned with handicaps?

What has taking on new members with open wallets to do with what comps etc?

We have just taken the money for absolutely years.

Pre pandemic our club was struggling to find new members and were not going to turn anybody away willing to pay.

 

[D-S]

What sort of golf club is this? Who runs it? Who organises comps? Who organises anything?

About 20% of clubs, very rough estimate.
Especially those that have a very small annual sub then pay as you play. Owners only interested in money and a very transient membership. This is unlikely to have much of a club culture and therefore fewer dedicated volunteers. Not all clubs with this business model are like this but many are. The Handicap Committee ends up being the Pro plus a couple (perhaps) of others - they are not going to question potential members much or ever ruffle the feathers of paying members.

 

[rulefan]

@rulefan is absolutely correct, about what "should happen" but there are, as @Swango1980 said, clubs where the primary concern is taking the fee and roles like handicap committee are just not done properly. (For whatever reason)

In that case the members deserve what they get. In particular if wrongly handicapped players are all winning the comps.

 

[IanM]

In that case the members deserve what they get. In particular if wrongly handicapped players are all winning the comps.

At many of these clubs, they are "customers" not members, if you get my meaning!

 

[Backsticks]

In that case the members deserve what they get. In particular if wrongly handicapped players are all winning the comps.

Members of other clubs are punished as well if they play in opens.
Maybe a limit of 18 should be the norm for opens until something is resolved to acknowledge a 45 hc is not compatible with them.

 

[D-S]

Members of other clubs are punished as well if they play in opens.
Maybe a limit of 18 should be the norm for opens until something is resolved to acknowledge a 45 hc is not compatible with them.

Unfortunately 18 is probably not low enough for some in Opens - 10-12 handicappers masquerading as 15-16 are often the most dangerous. I think having a set number of competition rounds over the past 12 months is one of the ways forward. Too easy to manipulate on GP rounds, at least putting in a lot of competition rounds is a slight cost to the individual (also the temptation to play well and therefore win a prize), comp scores are also perhaps more visible to Peer review.
Also reducing the value of Open prizes would be a help.

 

[peld]

on Saturday i played our winter league. Random fourballs, match play. Adjusted CH is 3 quarters given the shorter course.
My normal CH is 13, adjusted to 10.
I shot LEVEL PAR. My best ever round. 4 birdies, 4 bogies.

and LOST 1 down.

Although my partner didnt contribute individually, and my opps dovetailed well, it was mostly due to having to give one guy 16 shots - CH is normally 32.
Utterly infuriating and depressing having to make birdie putts or good pars just to get a half. What makes it worse is the guy whos is off 32 actually revels in the fact he gets all the shots - he has been a member for several years and never improved.

 

[Imurg]

on Saturday i played our winter league. Random fourballs, match play. Adjusted CH is 3 quarters given the shorter course.
My normal CH is 13, adjusted to 10.
I shot LEVEL PAR. My best ever round. 4 birdies, 4 bogies.

and LOST 1 down.

Although my partner didnt contribute individually, and my opps dovetailed well, it was mostly due to having to give one guy 16 shots - CH is normally 32.
Utterly infuriating and depressing having to make birdie putts or good pars just to get a half. What makes it worse is the guy whos is off 32 actually revels in the fact he gets all the shots - he has been a member for several years and never improved.

Ah...you've played Fragger then.....

 

[evemccc]

on Saturday i played our winter league. Random fourballs, match play. Adjusted CH is 3 quarters given the shorter course.
My normal CH is 13, adjusted to 10.
I shot LEVEL PAR. My best ever round. 4 birdies, 4 bogies.

and LOST 1 down.

Although my partner didnt contribute individually, and my opps dovetailed well, it was mostly due to having to give one guy 16 shots - CH is normally 32.
Utterly infuriating and depressing having to make birdie putts or good pars just to get a half. What makes it worse is the guy whos is off 32 actually revels in the fact he gets all the shots - he has been a member for several years and never improved.

Once you cognitively think something is ridiculous you then can no longer take it seriously…it is then so much easier to deal with disappointments such as the above

However…I think if it were me, I’d be over the moon having shot level par / my personal best ever round and so I would suggest you focus on that…which in itself is a fantastic achievement

 

[Swango1980]

What sort of golf club is this? Who runs it? Who organises comps? Who organises anything?

Let me tell you how it worked when I was there, before you start accusing the volunteers who do their best to run it (which is appalling in some respect)

Once a week, amongst all the other jobs I did as a handicap secretary, I would collect all the New Membership forms (people who have joined in the last week). Sometimes there may be a backlog, if I was away or the owner just was forgetful in passing them on. These application forms had a slot asking if they have been a member before, where they were a member and their CDH number if they had it to hand. If they filled this in, then I was able to find them, assuming they had a handicap at last club (they didn't always have one). Most of the time, this bit of the form was empty. Not a surprise, given it is a cheap course, and a good club for people starting the game.

Once I had processed these, I sent out emails to every new member (if they bothered to give an e-mail address). The email was different depending on whether I found their handicap, or they gave no details. If they gave no details, I gave them a reminder that they should pass this info on if they has left it out. Otherwise I gave them information on how they could get their first handicap. They now had direct contact, and sometimes a few would get back to me and let me know they did have a handicap before. As another "safety net", I would use the search tool and type their name, see if I could find a register of someone of that name, at least at any local clubs in history. If I did, I'd also include that in the e-mail asking if it was them. If they were called Benedict Cumberbatch, at a club just down the road, then I'd say the probability was quite high. If they were called James Smith, the probability lower. As far as I remember, the search tool wasn't great, I couldn't just look up any registered player with a handicap of that name all over the UK. I had to enter their name and either their CDH or a Club. No idea what it is like now.

However, you tell me how the club can do better if the new member is simply not forthcoming. Does your club give every new member a detailed interview? Do they tell players if they keep any past handicap a secret, they will be dismissed, or issue some other threat? The guy I was talking about has a very common first name and surname incidentally, so I don't think the handicap secretary would have much luck if they did search. And, not sure when they ceased to be a member, might have been just before 2018 and I don't know if their record could still be easily found? At any rate, I wouldn't expect the handicap secretary, who puts aside some time in their week (not retired), to do a full Sherlock Holmes for every new member.

Going forward, maybe things will get a bit easier, in that an email address is required to have a WHS Index (I guess that is still true), and so if a player now stops being a member, then becomes one again in the future, then the e-mail address alone would hopefully give you an instant answer to the above (unless they gave a different email address). But, in the case I discussed, this guy was never a member during the WHS years.

 

[D-S]

I guess the proof of a lack of scrutiny, for various reasons, of new members' golf record is the sheer number of duplicate and multiple CDH/Member numbers. There are many cited cases of individuals having up to 7 or 8 different numbers and I seem to recall one County saying that someone had over 20!

 

[rulefan]

Let me tell you how it worked when I was there, before you start accusing the volunteers who do their best to run it (which is appalling in some respect)

Once a week, amongst all the other jobs I did as a handicap secretary, I would collect all the New Membership forms (people who have joined in the last week). Sometimes there may be a backlog, if I was away or the owner just was forgetful in passing them on. These application forms had a slot asking if they have been a member before, where they were a member and their CDH number if they had it to hand. If they filled this in, then I was able to find them, assuming they had a handicap at last club (they didn't always have one). Most of the time, this bit of the form was empty. Not a surprise, given it is a cheap course, and a good club for people starting the game.

Once I had processed these, I sent out emails to every new member (if they bothered to give an e-mail address). The email was different depending on whether I found their handicap, or they gave no details. If they gave no details, I gave them a reminder that they should pass this info on if they has left it out. Otherwise I gave them information on how they could get their first handicap. They now had direct contact, and sometimes a few would get back to me and let me know they did have a handicap before. As another "safety net", I would use the search tool and type their name, see if I could find a register of someone of that name, at least at any local clubs in history. If I did, I'd also include that in the e-mail asking if it was them. If they were called Benedict Cumberbatch, at a club just down the road, then I'd say the probability was quite high. If they were called James Smith, the probability lower. As far as I remember, the search tool wasn't great, I couldn't just look up any registered player with a handicap of that name all over the UK. I had to enter their name and either their CDH or a Club. No idea what it is like now.

However, you tell me how the club can do better if the new member is simply not forthcoming. Does your club give every new member a detailed interview? Do they tell players if they keep any past handicap a secret, they will be dismissed, or issue some other threat? The guy I was talking about has a very common first name and surname incidentally, so I don't think the handicap secretary would have much luck if they did search. And, not sure when they ceased to be a member, might have been just before 2018 and I don't know if their record could still be easily found? At any rate, I wouldn't expect the handicap secretary, who puts aside some time in their week (not retired), to do a full Sherlock Holmes for every new member.

Going forward, maybe things will get a bit easier, in that an email address is required to have a WHS Index (I guess that is still true), and so if a player now stops being a member, then becomes one again in the future, then the e-mail address alone would hopefully give you an instant answer to the above (unless they gave a different email address). But, in the case I discussed, this guy was never a member during the WHS years.

How many were on the Handicap Committee? If you were the only working volunteer the club doesn't deserve a quality service.
The WHS Portal now allows for a name only search.
Did you ever ask your county for help in finding a player?
If a potential member is not forthcoming about their details, whether golfing or personal, don't accept their application until you get everything required.

 

[Swango1980]

How many were on the Handicap Committee? If you were the only working volunteer the club doesn't deserve a quality service.
The WHS Portal now allows for a name only search.
Did you ever ask your county for help in finding a player?
If a potential member is not forthcoming about their details, whether golfing or personal, don't accept their application until you get everything required.

When I was Handicap Sec, then it is fair to say I was the only one in charge. Others would sit in and help me at annual review, and I discusses Continuous Review with Committee once a month, to agree any changes. But, there were simply not the members available, who jumped at the chance at being on the Committee. I know there should be a Handicap Committee, but I suspect there are many clubs where handicap duties fall on one person, and there just are not the volunteers there to jump in and help them on regular tasks. Note, at the club now, there are undoubtedly issues with the Committee (Owner calls it an Association now, as he somehow thinks that is better than a Committee, which he dislikes after being challenged on behalf of members during Covid). A single person took over the role of Handicap Sec when I left, along with the position of Competition Sec, Treasurer and Ladies Captain. So, I've no doubt things could be miles more efficient. There are probably things that are done very poorly simply as a function of lack of people to organise things, although I can't blame the current volunteers for that. Not unless they are actuvely doing something they should not be, or laziness is stopping them doing other things. However, in this particular discussion, even with many on the Committee, it is not always a simple task in being able to identify new members with a previous handicap, 100% of the time. All you can do is put procedures in place to try and catch as many as you can.

No, I did not send an e-mail to County every time a new member joined with the Previous Club and Handicap boxes left blank. As I said, I contacted the member to remind them if they left it blank by mistake, otherwise I assumed it was not applicable (like for the majority of members, who were beginners). I did not automatically assume they were not being forthcoming about their details. If they then proceeded to hand in 3 scores to get a handicap, I processed that handicap, but then again firmly reminded them that if they had a handicap before, they should declare it. If they kept quiet on that one, I would just have to take their word for it, and I'd then only find out if someone else brought it to my attention.

 

[rulefan]

When I was Handicap Sec, then it is fair to say I was the only one in charge. Others would sit in and help me at annual review, and I discusses Continuous Review with Committee once a month, to agree any changes. But, there were simply not the members available, who jumped at the chance at being on the Committee. I know there should be a Handicap Committee, but I suspect there are many clubs where handicap duties fall on one person, and there just are not the volunteers there to jump in and help them on regular tasks. Note, at the club now, there are undoubtedly issues with the Committee (Owner calls it an Association now, as he somehow thinks that is better than a Committee, which he dislikes after being challenged on behalf of members during Covid). A single person took over the role of Handicap Sec when I left, along with the position of Competition Sec, Treasurer and Ladies Captain. So, I've no doubt things could be miles more efficient. There are probably things that are done very poorly simply as a function of lack of people to organise things, although I can't blame the current volunteers for that. Not unless they are actuvely doing something they should not be, or laziness is stopping them doing other things. However, in this particular discussion, even with many on the Committee, it is not always a simple task in being able to identify new members with a previous handicap, 100% of the time. All you can do is put procedures in place to try and catch as many as you can.

No, I did not send an e-mail to County every time a new member joined with the Previous Club and Handicap boxes left blank. As I said, I contacted the member to remind them if they left it blank by mistake, otherwise I assumed it was not applicable (like for the majority of members, who were beginners). I did not automatically assume they were not being forthcoming about their details. If they then proceeded to hand in 3 scores to get a handicap, I processed that handicap, but then again firmly reminded them that if they had a handicap before, they should declare it. If they kept quiet on that one, I would just have to take their word for it, and I'd then only find out if someone else brought it to my attention.

I truly commend you for your diligence but you (and your successor) were badly let down by your club, including other members.

But I wasn't suggesting you contact the county for everyone, only if you had difficulty tracking them down if it seems they had been a member elsewhere.

 

[Swango1980]

I truly commend you for your diligence but you (and your successor) were badly let down by your club, including other members.

But I wasn't suggesting you contact the county for everyone, only if you had difficulty tracking them down if it seems they had been a member elsewhere.

On a few occasions (once ot twice tops), I contacted the county. But, only when I knew they were a member and I couldn't find them. I knew they were a member as they told me so.

 

[Captain_Black.]

Almost exclusively our Senior Section (with the exception of about a dozen low handicappers) seem to have a collective mindset that they should always play to their handicap & on a good day be able to comfortably shoot about 8 shots under it.
Can't really get my head around their attitude to the game tbh.

Our handicap committee is almost exclusively made up from the Seniors Section, which possibly explains why no action is ever taken, although in saying that, how many on here have seen their handicap committees take any action in regards to handicap anomalies?

 

[ExRabbit]

Let me tell you how it worked when I was there, before you start accusing the volunteers who do their best to run it (which is appalling in some respect)

Once a week, amongst all the other jobs I did as a handicap secretary, I would collect all the New Membership forms (people who have joined in the last week). Sometimes there may be a backlog, if I was away or the owner just was forgetful in passing them on. These application forms had a slot asking if they have been a member before, where they were a member and their CDH number if they had it to hand. If they filled this in, then I was able to find them, assuming they had a handicap at last club (they didn't always have one). Most of the time, this bit of the form was empty. Not a surprise, given it is a cheap course, and a good club for people starting the game.

Once I had processed these, I sent out emails to every new member (if they bothered to give an e-mail address). The email was different depending on whether I found their handicap, or they gave no details. If they gave no details, I gave them a reminder that they should pass this info on if they has left it out. Otherwise I gave them information on how they could get their first handicap. They now had direct contact, and sometimes a few would get back to me and let me know they did have a handicap before. As another "safety net", I would use the search tool and type their name, see if I could find a register of someone of that name, at least at any local clubs in history. If I did, I'd also include that in the e-mail asking if it was them. If they were called Benedict Cumberbatch, at a club just down the road, then I'd say the probability was quite high. If they were called James Smith, the probability lower. As far as I remember, the search tool wasn't great, I couldn't just look up any registered player with a handicap of that name all over the UK. I had to enter their name and either their CDH or a Club. No idea what it is like now.

However, you tell me how the club can do better if the new member is simply not forthcoming. Does your club give every new member a detailed interview? Do they tell players if they keep any past handicap a secret, they will be dismissed, or issue some other threat? The guy I was talking about has a very common first name and surname incidentally, so I don't think the handicap secretary would have much luck if they did search. And, not sure when they ceased to be a member, might have been just before 2018 and I don't know if their record could still be easily found? At any rate, I wouldn't expect the handicap secretary, who puts aside some time in their week (not retired), to do a full Sherlock Holmes for every new member.

Going forward, maybe things will get a bit easier, in that an email address is required to have a WHS Index (I guess that is still true), and so if a player now stops being a member, then becomes one again in the future, then the e-mail address alone would hopefully give you an instant answer to the above (unless they gave a different email address). But, in the case I discussed, this guy was never a member during the WHS years.

Regarding this post.

I remember that you recently dismissed somebody who told you that your posts were too long.

He wasn't wrong.

And I did read it all, as you suggested in a previous post, just to confirm that I agreed anyway.

You must be the most verbose writer in the forums that I read.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Regarding this post.

I remember that you recently dismissed somebody who told you that your posts were too long.

He wasn't wrong.

And I did read it all, as you suggested in a previous post, just to confirm that I agreed anyway.

You must be the most verbose writer in the forums that I read.

Well, someone has to be.

Mostly, he writes very well and is informative.

 

[NearHull]

Almost exclusively our Senior Section (with the exception of about a dozen low handicappers) seem to have a collective mindset that they should always play to their handicap & on a good day be able to comfortably shoot about 8 shots under it.
Can't really get my head around their attitude to the game tbh.

Our handicap committee is almost exclusively made up from the Seniors Section, which possibly explains why no action is ever taken, although in saying that, how many on here have seen their handicap committees take any action in regards to handicap anomalies?

As the chair of our Handicap Committee, I ‘bristled‘ when I read the above question, but then on reflection thought that is a very good question. Perhaps someone with greater forum knowledge could create a way of ascertaining an method of trying to find the answer. The ‘vote buttons’ ( can’t think what the proper term is ) could be used - but the clever bit is composing the questions.

 

[Swango1980]

Regarding this post.

I remember that you recently dismissed somebody who told you that your posts were too long.

He wasn't wrong.

And I did read it all, as you suggested in a previous post, just to confirm that I agreed anyway.

You must be the most verbose writer in the forums that I read.

I apologise you didn't like the length of it. Although I did not expect everyone to read it. I skip many long posts by users, simply if I feel it will be of no interest to me. At same time, I do not feel it is necessary to inform them it was too long for me. Maybe someone else was happy to read it.

In this case, I felt it was worth putting up a robust defence for handicap committees / secretaries at some clubs. There will be many clubs like my old one, who struggle for volunteers and can't be as robust I what they do compared to other clubs.