WHS doesn't work

[AussieKB]

You've lost me. I fail to see the link between having 31 points, playing off 19, and not liking the system.

And what is it about her experience with the Australian handicapping system that caused you to 'welcome' her to it?

First time she has seen a huge movement where I have experienced it multiple times and also seen larger ones, my welcome is for her to experience it and to see it happen many more times, just like every other Countries System.

 

[Steven Rules]

I'm still puzzled. Is she Australian? How long has she played golf in Australia?

Australia has been taking the average of the best 8 of 20 for at least ten years. I am surprised that it has taken a decade for her to encounter a movement of 0.7 or come to a sudden realisation that she doesn't like the system.

 

[Ye Olde Boomer]

The essential difference for the UK is that we are not required to submit a card for handicap purposes every time we play. If we want a score to count for handicap we either have to play in a formal competition or sign before going out to say we are submitting a card for handicap purposes (called a General Play score here) and the card has to be scores as if it is a competition round i.e either ball holed out* or hole score recorded as not completed (NR) if a hole is not stared for a valid reason it can be recorded as such

* We are not allowed 'most likely score'

Thank you.

 

[AussieKB]

I'm still puzzled. Is she Australian? How long has she played golf in Australia?

Australia has been taking the average of the best 8 of 20 for at least ten years. I am surprised that it has taken a decade for her to encounter a movement of 0.7 or come to a sudden realisation that she doesn't like the system.

She is English but lived in OZ for years, but has never had a large movement in handicap before, normally 1-3 range, like most Ladies, Men are the ones with huge movements over 1 full shot at times, have just visited friends in Sussex and husband and wife both dislike the system, Lady told me she won recently and was embarrassed to beat a 2 handicapper Man in a mixed event because English HS gave her an extra 3 shots.

I'm still puzzled. Is she Australian? How long has she played golf in Australia?

Australia has been taking the average of the best 8 of 20 for at least ten years. I am surprised that it has taken a decade for her to encounter a movement of 0.7 or come to a sudden realisation that she doesn't like the system.

see above, is now Australian Citizen

 

[rulefan]

Lady told me she won recently and was embarrassed to beat a 2 handicapper Man in a mixed event because English HS gave her an extra 3 shots.

There isn't an English HS
She would probably have got shots in the old CONGU system

 

[AussieKB]

There isn't an English HS
She would probably have got shots in the old CONGU system

Well it is different from ours......and they all keep changing, do you really believe yours will not have another change ?
you have copied most of ours, as we were the Guinea Pigs IMO

 

[rulefan]

Well it is different from ours......and they all keep changing, do you really believe yours will not have another change ?
you have copied most of ours, as we were the Guinea Pigs IMO

Well WHS is very different from CONGU but I thought it was largely based on the Australian system with a large slice from the USA.

 

[AussieKB]

Well WHS is very different from CONGU but I thought it was largely based on the Australian system with a large slice from the USA.

Glad to see you agree it is different, but do you believe there will be more changes to yours, because I believe there will more changes to our OZ system.

 

[wjemather]

Well it is different from ours......and they all keep changing, do you really believe yours will not have another change ?
you have copied most of ours, as we were the Guinea Pigs IMO

The implementations of WHS may differ in options chosen, but they are fundamentally the same system - same rating system, same methodology, etc.

Of course, there will always be changes as improvements are made.

Australia were not guinea pigs at all. Australia adopted and later adapted the old USGA system (e.g. by changing best 10 of 20 to best 8 of 20). WHS was developed by taking (what was deemed to be through widespread consultation) the best features of all major handicapping systems. That the result most closely resembles the old GA system simply meant Australian golfers had less noticeable change to come to terms with when WHS came in than everyone else (assisted by the GA implementation that retained things like the Daily Handicap). Unfortunately, it is apparent that because the changes were small, some Australian golfers mistakenly believe they have been using WHS for years - long before the rest of the world, and even before it's development began.

 

[AussieKB]

The implementations of WHS may differ in options chosen, but they are fundamentally the same system - same rating system, same methodology, etc.

Of course, there will always be changes as improvements are made.

Australia were not guinea pigs at all. Australia adopted and later adapted the old USGA system (e.g. by changing best 10 of 20 to best 8 of 20). WHS was developed by taking (what was deemed to be through widespread consultation) the best features of all major handicapping systems. That the result most closely resembles the old GA system simply meant Australian golfers had less noticeable change to come to terms with when WHS came in than everyone else (assisted by the GA implementation that retained things like the Daily Handicap). Unfortunately, it is apparent that because the changes were small, some Australian golfers mistakenly believe they have been using WHS for years - long before the rest of the world, and even before it's development began.

I think we agree to disagree, I lived through all the changes, at least five and like I said I expect more, from a system that was supposed to have been thoroughly tested before it's implementation.

So good luck with your English system and hopefully ours will finally get to a stage where all golfers are comfortable with it.

 

[AussieKB]

I just looked at my handicap history, and we were using slope rating etc 5 years ago, and I know we were using a version over 10 years ago.

 

[wjemather]

I think we agree to disagree, I lived through all the changes, at least five and like I said I expect more, from a system that was supposed to have been thoroughly tested before it's implementation.

So good luck with your English system and hopefully ours will finally get to a stage where all golfers are comfortable with it.

No, because this isn't a difference of opinion. You are disagreeing with the facts.
Whatever you "lived through" before 30 January 2020, was not WHS.

 

[Voyager EMH]

The debate here about par/bogey comps was interesting. But no one mentioned that the problem with them was pretty much the same prior to WHS.

I would putt out for a bogey on first hole.
Playing partners might tell me I had already lost the hole and could pick up.
I would say that I could finish 2 down at the end, but play below handicap if I birdie shot-holes.
Therefore, I need to hole out for these 1-pointers or else they will be zero-pointers and I will become in danger of a +0.1 when I need not be.

When WHS came in, it gave me no new change of thinking with regard to my approach to par/bogey comps and my potential handicap movements.

 

[wjemather]

I just looked at my handicap history, and we were using slope rating etc 5 years ago, and I know we were using a version over 10 years ago.

The course rating system is not the handicap system.

The USGA Course and Slope Rating System is not dependent on any particular handicap system and was in use worldwide long before WHS was even imagined. It was the cornerstone of most pre-WHS handicap systems, many of which bear very little resemblance to one another, e.g. the average best of the USGA and GA systems and the ratchet of the EGA and CONGU systems.

 

[clubchamp98]

The debate here about par/bogey comps was interesting. But no one mentioned that the problem with them was pretty much the same prior to WHS.

I would putt out for a bogey on first hole.
Playing partners might tell me I had already lost the hole and could pick up.
I would say that I could finish 2 down at the end, but play below handicap if I birdie shot-holes.
Therefore, I need to hole out for these 1-pointers or else they will be zero-pointers and I will become in danger of a +0.1 when I need not be.

When WHS came in, it gave me no new change of thinking with regard to my approach to par/bogey comps and my potential handicap movements.

I think the main point ,from me anyway was that it’s basically matchplay against the course.
But in matchplay if you have a putt for a half you can have a go at it and not worry about the one back.
In matchplay we should not be thinking about just two putting unless that can win you the hole.
But the course dosnt make mistakes like in real matchplay.

It’s always been like this I appreciate that .

 

[Voyager EMH]

I think the main point ,from me anyway was that it’s basically matchplay against the course.
But in matchplay if you have a putt for a half you can have a go at it and not worry about the one back.
In matchplay we should not be thinking about just two putting unless that can win you the hole.
But the course dosnt make mistakes like in real matchplay.

It’s always been like this I appreciate that .

I agree that the comp format was matchplay, but it was still strokeplay against the course regarding one's handicap adjustment.
So the choice of going for that putt for a half was there for the comp, but consideration of one's score for handicap was there at the same time.
Well, it was for me.

 

[IanM]

Hopefully, ours will finally get to a stage where all golfers are comfortable with it.

I think ambivalence will get taken as comfort!

Guys I play with don't go near forums like this, and just shrug their shoulders at some of the stories.

I've previously mentioned some groups where I play who no longer put in cards and play "doing their own thing" re handicapping.

That strikes me as extreme, but demonstrates what can happen when change is poorly managed.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I think ambivalence will get taken as comfort!

Guys I play with don't go near forums like this, and just shrug their shoulders at some of the stories.

I've previously mentioned some groups where I play who no longer put in cards and play "doing their own thing" re handicapping.

That strikes me as extreme, but demonstrates what can happen when change is poorly managed.

This is true. But there are also a lot of seniors who don’t like change and can’t be bothered to learn. They are throwing toddler tantrums about it.

 

[IanM]

This is true. But there are also a lot of seniors who don’t like change and can’t be bothered to learn. They are throwing toddler tantrums about it.

Absolutely. It's not just Seniors either. Folk generally don't like change and when a potential client said to me, "I embrace change," I knew they'd be the difficult party!

 

[rulefan]

I think we agree to disagree, I lived through all the changes, at least five and like I said I expect more, from a system that was supposed to have been thoroughly tested before it's implementation.

So good luck with your English system and hopefully ours will finally get to a stage where all golfers are comfortable with it.

The USGA rating system (including Slope) preceded WHS by many. many years. The only notable country that didn't use the rating system was England. The rest of CONGU used the actual Course Rating but didn't use Slope.

But given that WHS used most of the latest Australian system as the model just what are the issues in WHS that are causing the problems over there.
(I recognise that the Daily Handicap vs Course Handicap / Playing Handicap are different but I believe that function hasn't changed in Australia).

What are the five changes made to WHS?
In the UK there have been
(CR-Par)
4BBB
9 hole scores
What of significance have I missed?