WHS doesn't work

[Andy1981]

The fault is with the M&H at your club, not the system in general. Divisional prizes for your medals and regular stablefords with a reasonable restriction, 90 or 95% of CH. Seems to work for us, the spread between the low HCs and high HCs is pretty wide. Then for board comps, generally impose a limit, say 28 for seniors, 24 for the rest, but have a few scratch comps, and a couple of betterball trophies with no restrictions. Club champs should always distinguish between best gross and best net. Clubs not moving with the times and their members complaining is the tail wagging the dog.

 

[Alan Clifford]

All of the gents comps at my place have for entry a max handicap index 28.0 must have been achieved and max shots allowance/strokes received of 28 - unless otherwise specified for any given comp. For ladies it 36.0 and 36.

Given the ladies play of different tee ratings and handicaps because ... they are ladies, why do they get 36 when the men only get 28?

 

[Andy1981]

Given the ladies play of different tee ratings and handicaps because ... they are ladies, why do they get 36 when the men only get 28?

I'd guess because that's traditionally been the maximum. Plus their aren't too many club-level lady golfers that are big hitters, so unless the difference in the tees is 80-odd yards, they're going to struggle to hit GIRs. Think about it, 395 yd par four and you drive it 160-170. You're going to struggle to get on in less than 4 most days if the reds are only 15 yards forward.

 

[Alan Clifford]

I'd guess because that's traditionally been the maximum. Plus their aren't too many club-level lady golfers that are big hitters, so unless the difference in the tees is 80-odd yards, they're going to struggle to hit GIRs. Think about it, 395 yd par four and you drive it 160-170. You're going to struggle to get on in less than 4 most days if the reds are only 15 yards forward.

Club level men who aren't big hitters?

 

[Andy1981]

Club level men who aren't big hitters?

On in 4, 2 putt and run lol. Seriously though, those guys at our club tend to hit their fairway woods very well. No idea why they bother with driver tbh

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Given the ladies play of different tee ratings and handicaps because ... they are ladies, why do they get 36 when the men only get 28?

I’ve got no idea…maybe that aspect of the Competition Handbook has not yet been updated. Maybe it’s simply that if ladies entries were limited to HI of 28.0 or better there wouldn’t be that many able to enter most competitions. I think that there may be different HI constraints for mixed comps…

 

[D-S]

I’ve got no idea…maybe that aspect of the Competition Handbook has not yet been updated. Maybe it’s simply that if ladies entries were limited to HI of 28.0 or better there wouldn’t be that many able to enter most competitions. I think that there may be different HI constraints for mixed comps…

The average HI for men is 17 and for women it is 27, so perhaps it is to achieve comparable entry levels?

 

[NearHull]

It’s a long story but if you are interested in the 4BB issues , stick with it.

The 4BB issues being experienced between the EG and the ISV software have been resolved. To try to bring myself and our Committee up to speed and gain some familiarity, I set up a simulation 4BB Stableford Competition for two teams on ClubV1. I believe the type off ISV is irrelevant here. I purposely simulated scores that gave all four players >10 counting scores by only picking up on one or two holes for each player and recording a 0. The players had different handicaps and on many holes they had different Gross but the same Nett to achieve the same points. There is no way of annotating which player holed out first. They all had their ‘day in the sun” and each team achieved 42 or more points. I closed the competition and opened up the EG database.

EG had recorded a score against each individual, made up of their >10 scores plus their partner’s ‘awarded points’ and each player achieved >36 pts and their HI was predicted to be reduced.

No particular issues so far, all four players had excellent scores all four players were reduced.

Then, by coincidence, I had to correct an error whereby an actual mixed 4BB Medal Competition, played over the weekend, had mistakenly not been annotated as a Qualifying Competition in Club V1 and had been closed. ( it can’t retrospectively be corrected in ClubV1). As the winning team had scored a 66 ( 6 under) it was probably a reduction for the Lady who carded 10 scores. Together with our Pro, I entered it directly into EG.

But the score entry is restricted using this method. The software only allows you to input the best team score and asks you to select which player achieved that score. In this particular case the man only came in on 8 holes.

No particular issues, it turned out that the Lady didn’t achieve 36pts and hence no record was logged into her record by the software.

The big HOWEVER is that if I had used direct EG input for my simulated competition, the software design seems to give me the decision of which player to award the better team score, when both players scored the same points and we do not know who holed out first. By choosing one player he would have been cut , the other player, who should also have been cut, does not have his handicap impacted. I’ve no idea what would have happened if I’d randomly switched between the two players.

I have chatted this over informally with an EG Area Handicap Advisor.

Perhaps most on here, will not see this as an issue, but it allows the administrator the ability to manipulate handicaps by having to decide which player to cut when both have their ‘day in the sun’ and when the scores are not entered through an ISV but directly into EG.

Software anomaly or incorrect system design?

( I let the simulation run overnight and deleted the scores from the individual records the next day - all HIs reverted back correctly and whilst PCC would have been mathematically influenced by the simulation scores, in reality it would only have had a small impact)

I just want to make a final point. When would anyone intentionally not use the ISV to manage a competition? One obvious example is when it is an Open 4BB and the ISV has to be manually loaded with all the visitors names - up to 180 in our case. The easy and lazy option is not to use the ISV but to continue to run the 4BB Open using paper and then only directly entering the ‘better than 42pts’ scores into EG.

I will add that we will run our Opens using ClubV1 and take the pain of the manual input.

 

[Jules]

It’s a long story but if you are interested in the 4BB issues , stick with it.

1.The big HOWEVER is that if I had used direct EG input for my simulated competition, the software design seems to give me the decision of which player to award the better team score, when both players scored the same points and we do not know who holed out first. By choosing one player he would have been cut , the other player, who should also have been cut, does not have his handicap impacted. I’ve no idea what would have happened if I’d randomly switched between the two players.

I have chatted this over informally with an EG Area Handicap Advisor.

Perhaps most on here, will not see this as an issue, but it allows the administrator the ability to manipulate handicaps by having to decide which player to cut when both have their ‘day in the sun’ and when the scores are not entered through an ISV but directly into EG.



2. I just want to make a final point. When would anyone intentionally not use the ISV to manage a competition? One obvious example is when it is an Open 4BB and the ISV has to be manually loaded with all the visitors names - up to 180 in our case. The easy and lazy option is not to use the ISV but to continue to run the 4BB Open using paper and then only directly entering the ‘better than 42pts’ scores into EG.

.

Hi, I’ve cropped your original post above, so that I can more easily target my responses/comments.

1. In the direct EG entry, if both players scored the same, tick both, then it uses that score for both players correctly, it doesn’t give the other an algorithm score….it doesn’t matter in that instance who holed first, they both scored the same.

2. There are many Organisers of 4BBB Tournaments, who don’t use recognised ISV’s and who for various reasons have not registered with England Golf as an Official Organiser. In those cases they rely on the home clubs of those players to enter the qualifying scores on there home software using the direct EG method.

 

[NearHull]

Hi, I’ve cropped your original post above, so that I can more easily target my responses/comments.

1. In the direct EG entry, if both players scored the same, tick both, then it uses that score for both players correctly, it doesn’t give the other an algorithm score….it doesn’t matter in that instance who holed first, they both scored the same.

2. There are many Organisers of 4BBB Tournaments, who don’t use recognised ISV’s and who for various reasons have not registered with England Golf as an Official Organiser. In those cases they rely on the home clubs of those players to enter the qualifying scores on there home software using the direct EG method.

Thanks , I didn’t appreciate that you can tick both. It’s still a little incorrect , I think, in that each player could have a different gross but still count as the better score for nett. What number do you enter?

 

[Jules]

Thanks , I didn’t appreciate that you can tick both. It’s still a little incorrect , I think, in that each player could have a different gross but still count as the better score for nett. What number do you enter?

Need to choose ‘Stableford’ on left hand side drop down, not ‘gross’ then enter team Stableford points… and tick either player or both players depending on who got points at 85%

 

[NearHull]

Need to choose ‘Stableford’ on left hand side drop down, not ‘gross’ then enter team Stableford points… and tick either player or both players depending on who got points at 85%

Thank you again. Perhaps being a bit picky now ( but I have been out for a few refreshments) how does it work for BB Medal?

 

[Jules]

Thank you again. Perhaps being a bit picky now ( but I have been out for a few refreshments) how does it work for BB Medal?

It doesn't… only 4BBB pairs have been accepted for handicapping. The team (pair) score can be entered as gross score or Stableford points.

 

[NearHull]

It doesn't… only 4BBB pairs have been accepted for handicapping. The team (pair) score can be entered as gross score or Stableford points.

Not useable for 4BBB medal/stroke is a poor design.

 

[D-S]

Not useable for 4BBB medal/stroke is a poor design.

Surely if it is medal you just input the gross scores. 4BB medal and Stableford are both acceptable.

 

[Jules]

Surely if it is medal you just input the gross scores. 4BB medal and Stableford are both acceptable.

Not if team game…. Only pairs can use the new 4BBB score entry method as the algorithm is set up for a pairs score of 42pts or more. No facility to put 4 scores in…under the new score entry method. Under the rules of golf, 4BBB best 2 or 3 scores, shouldn’t be handicap counting as team members give advice to each other and play tactically to gain advantage on line to play etc. ISV’s will automatically show them as non-handicap qualifiers. Although we will all know instances where individuals put those scores in as general play cards, if they know their gross score for each hole.

 

[rulefan]

It doesn't… only 4BBB pairs have been accepted for handicapping. The team (pair) score can be entered as gross score or Stableford points.

What other type of Fourball is there that isn't pairs?

Four-Ball may be played as a match-play competition between one side of two partners and another side of two partners or a stroke-play competition among multiple sides of two partners.

 

[Jules]

What other type of Fourball is there that isn't pairs?

Four-Ball may be played as a match-play competition between one side of two partners and another side of two partners or a stroke-play competition among multiple sides of two partners.

Absolutely, I agree with you, but a lot of clubs call the ‘Best of’ Team games 4BBB when there are 4 players even though they aren’t playing as pairs…but as a team.

 

[D-S]

Not if team game…. Only pairs can use the new 4BBB score entry method as the algorithm is set up for a pairs score of 42pts or more. No facility to put 4 scores in…under the new score entry method. Under the rules of golf, 4BBB best 2 or 3 scores, shouldn’t be handicap counting as team members give advice to each other and play tactically to gain advantage on line to play etc. ISV’s will automatically show them as non-handicap qualifiers. Although we will all know instances where individuals put those scores in as general play cards, if they know their gross score for each hole.

As Rulefan correctly says 4BB is only a pairs format.

 

[Jules]

As Rulefan correctly says 4BB is only a pairs format.

Agree…..