Swango1980
Well-known member
That is only because golfers are not penalised for hitting the ball out of bounds
WHS doesn't work
- Thread starter Captain_Black.
- Start date
Neilds
Assistant Pro
For all those posters who are stating that higher handicaps are winning disproportionate amounts/more than they should please show me where it is laid down that you can only win competitions when you have a handicap lower than XX?
And before anyone tries posting stats, they should remember that you can prove more than one argument with the same set of numbers
And before anyone tries posting stats, they should remember that you can prove more than one argument with the same set of numbers
D
Deleted member 30522
Guest
The stats have been posted twice now (at least). And no its a simple calculation, x% of players should win x% of the time if the handicap system is equitable.For all those posters who are stating that higher handicaps are winning disproportionate amounts/more than they should please show me where it is laid down that you can only win competitions when you have a handicap lower than XX?
And before anyone tries posting stats, they should remember that you can prove more than one argument with the same set of numbers
Nobody is saying "you can only win if...", we're saying it should be fair, not biased, and there is a clear bias showing.
rulefan
Tour Winner
D
Deleted member 30522
Guest
See when you only read headlines......
From my link:
The Category 1 players might not like it but, going by these stats, any disadvantage they now have is far less than the advantage they had under the old system.
Granted. But when the data is showing that the playing field has significantly levelled, even if still not perfect, moving in the right direction should not justify claims that whs is not working, or out with the torches and pitchforks for high handicappers.
It has IMPROVED. Any disquiet should be less than whatever was there before whs.
So I think we call all agree, such a big improvement can be described as nothing but as a good step. Golfers from plus 10 to -54 are united : whs better than Congu/UHS.
rulefan
Tour Winner
D
Deleted member 30522
Guest
Yes, clearly everyone has been agreeing with you throuhgout this thread. Christ almighty, WHS was heralded as "fixing" the handicap system, all they've done is create a new error, and as I said further up, have actually given an advantage to duffers. Imagine creating a system where being bad at something is more advantageous than being good at it? Nobody can surely agree with that, yourself excepted obviously.
The issue of good or bad is completely irrelevant to this debate. Maybe that is a fundamental mistake you and others are making. We are talking about handicap competition. Absolute scores, or the level of the golfer do not apply. Only scores relative to that handicap. Low handicap golfers have no special status in hc competition. But some seem to think the should - a sort of hybrid - handicaps, but add in a bit of gross too. That is not the premise of handicap golf.
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D
Deleted member 29109
Guest
I genuinely cannot get my head round why the HC system doesn’t and shouldn’t favour better players. The whole point of golf is to get the ball in the hole in the fewest shots.
I suppose if you play with the purpose of getting your name on a wall somewhere rather than shooting the best score you can. The new system will suit keeping your HC artificially inflated more than the old system.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Because the HC system is all about levelling.
Scratch golf is about identifying the better players…and I am sure you know that.
I think we have the core of the problem here, and the same as Banchory. Its HANDICAP golf. All equal. The plus 5 man gets no honour for being a +5 in a handicap comp. For that, he plays gross or scratch golf competitions. But in handicap comps, he is the same as the 54 man.
Anyone truly believing what you are saying BiMGuy, surely wouldnt be interrested in hc golf comps anyway ? Play scratch competitions only. Fewest shots wins. Simple.
And leave the hc comps to those of us who prefer that. Rather than imposing a twisted, handicaps....but not quite.
D-S
Well-known member
Everything that I heard or had presented to me and that I can currently still see on websites about the introduction of WHS talked about having a new portable global handicap, the ease of recording scores and a system that was quicker to respond to form. The only talk of ‘levelling’ was between harder and easier courses. Can someone can point me in the direction of information distributed during the transition that said or even inferred “UHS is fundamentally flawed and is biased in favour of better players, so we are going to introduce a system that reverses this and, if anything, will favour the higher handicappers”?
Swango1980
Well-known member
Handicap golf can never really be deemed "fair"
In an ideal world, everybody in a competition has many scores on their record, from fairly recent rounds of golf, and you could then say their handicap is a fair reflection of those scores. Then, perhaps, handicap competitions would be "fair".
However, not 100% of golfers in a field will fit this category. You will always get a certain portion of golfers who have scope to improve, both high and low handicappers. If you have enough of them, then the probability in one of these golfers winning a competition is much higher than a steady golfer, especially a steady low handicapper. And, the chances favour the higher handicappers of those guys improving, as they have more scope to improve.
So, if you are a 40 handicapper who has loads of scores on your record, your chances are not really significantly better than anyone else's unless something changes to cause improvement. Once a high handicapper goes on that journey of improvement, then they are likely to enjoy a lot of success on that ride. However, once they plateau to where their ability is likely to take them, then their chances of winning competitions will reduce significantly again, to the point they are no more likely to win a comp compared to when they were a genuine high handicapper (before the improvement began)
That is probably what is disheartening to most low handicappers. Nearly all will have started with a much higher handicapper, and now they have reached their ability feel they are in no better position than before they started that journey of improvement. Maybe it feels like a waste of time?
For these low handicappers, I don't believe most of them think high handicappers should not be able to win competitions. Rather, I think that they believe that 1) a high handicapper should earn that handicap, by having enough scores to give more confidence that they require such a handicap advantage in competitive golf; and 2) that there is even a marginal factor to slightly favour the lower handicappers, so that high handicappers have more incentive to improve, and thus increase their chances in being successful. Important to highlight this is only a marginal factor, not complete removal of handicap so we just go to the extreme and have scratch golf for everyone. So, perhaps that would mean reducing the 95% adjustment in singles to 90% (example only, this is not a definitive proposal)
Swango1980
Well-known member
There was nothing I believe. However, now that WHS has established, and this has been a criticism of it, it is quite simple to say "WHS is right, UHS was wrong, so there".
D
Deleted member 30522
Guest
Now you're getting it, but we're not all equal, duffers are being unequally rewarded.
I fully expect the first review to have a tweak that will address this, most likely as someone said above, making the allowance maybe 90%, with 4BBB getting a further equivalent % cut as well
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
No it wasn’t it was another lad
“A forum myth “ Is what he called it.
If it’s not happening at yours your lucky.
But why question the guys who say it is happening at their club with “myth” if you have no experience of it.
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clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
I can’t get my head around why ANYBODY should have an advantage.
If low men were better off under UHS that’s the rule makers fault not the golfers.
They had the chance to make it even for everyone .
But have given a section of players an advantage WHY.
Just make it even for us all.
Swango1980
Well-known member
I've just read through this again (only glanced at the graph before). Unless I am misinterpreting it, this is scary.
The graph appears to show the average Stableford score for each category of golfer. This is now fairly balanced, but before WHS the average score was better for lower handicappers.
But surely you'd expect the average score to be better for lower handicappers, as their bad scores are not as bad. If all players now get a similar average score, it is going to mean that high handicappers get even higher scores on their best days
