WHS doesn't work

[Backsticks]

He was 22.4 UHS....
His 1st WHS was 22.5 ...add the slope...hell, I've already done the maths
If you can't read it.......

Yes, Iv corrected that. An increase of 4. Still not 5 or 6. And a 'point one' of old would have reduced that to one a three shot increase.

The real point is though, he should have the extra 4 shots. And his 41 deserved to be 45 relative to the field. The 41 was the 'wrong' score. The 45 is the score his golf, relative to his competitors, deserved.

 

[Backsticks]

He was 22.4 UHS....
His 1st WHS was 22.5 ...add the slope...hell, I've already done the maths
If you can't read it.......

Check your maths though. ?

 

[rulefan]

It seems some ex EGU players don't really understand the purpose of Slope. Apart from the old EGU (men) , every country in the world, including all GB&I, were rating courses for slope for years prior to WHS. The rest of GB&I (ie CONGU) couldn't use it because of the EGU. But it was available to overseas players if the course had kept the slope rating.
England men invented the SSS (Standard Scratch Score) ignoring all players except those on scratch.

 

[Smagsmith]

We have 7 net major (board) comps for singles. We have divisions (1= 0-16, 2= 16+).
The overall winner and therefore gets their name on the board is the best net score from either division. There are also divisional prizes. This year, every net major has come from div 2. The average winning handicap is 22 and the average score to net par is -6.
Needless to say the div 1 players are not happy.

 

[Bdill93]

We have 7 net major (board) comps for singles. We have divisions (1= 0-16, 2= 16+).
The overall winner and therefore gets their name on the board is the best net score from either division. There are also divisional prizes. This year, every net major has come from div 2. The average winning handicap is 22 and the average score to net par is -6.
Needless to say the div 1 players are not happy.

Would you say your course is easy?

 

[D-S]

I don’t understand in a competition where there is only one overall winner that you can have divisions.
Surely, in let’s say the October Medal, there is a Div 1 winner and a Div 2 winner, this is the purpose of divisions i.e.to divide the field into groups of similar handicaps and players competing against players in their division not against those in other divisions.
If it is currently a single cup competition why not introduce an extra cup for Div 2.

 

[wjemather]

Would you say your course is easy?

Easy/difficult is relative, and perception of such is subjective. The required information (as always) is course and slope ratings, and pars - without these details it's impossible to relate scores to handicapping.

 

[Bdill93]

Easy/difficult is relative, and perception of such is subjective. The required information (as always) is course and slope ratings, and pars - without these details it's impossible to relate scores to handicapping.

And I think we've also proved that actually a course that plays easy can be a factor in high scoring - as per my course.

 

[Backsticks]

We hav

And I think we've also proved that actually a course that plays easy can be a factor in high scoring - as per my course.

We have ??? When ?
Course difficulty should not affect scoring. If CR and Slope are correct.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

IT shouldnt. Handicapped competitions arent about skill They are about performance on the day relative to your hc.

Yes, but WHS is now, according to the actual trackabale statistics, favouring disproportianately, the higher handicaps.

 

[Orikoru]

We hav

We have ??? When ?
Course difficulty should not affect scoring. If CR and Slope are correct.

Answered your own question there!

Somebody told me about another course - I can't remember which course it was and I am hazy on the details admittedly, but the jist of it was that they got the course/slope rating reviewer guys to come back twice because they weren't happy with the initial ratings. It was something along the lines of; the first time they came on a summer's morning, breezed around it and gave it a low rating. The course owners invited them back one afternoon, plied them with drinks and a lunch while the greenkeepers put all the hardest pin positions out. Lo and behold, the new rating was a lot higher.

Long story short - course and slope ratings can be wide of the mark.

 

[D-S]

Answered your own question there!

Somebody told me about another course - I can't remember which course it was and I am hazy on the details admittedly, but the jist of it was that they got the course/slope rating reviewer guys to come back twice because they weren't happy with the initial ratings. It was something along the lines of; the first time they came on a summer's morning, breezed around it and gave it a low rating. The course owners invited them back one afternoon, plied them with drinks and a lunch while the greenkeepers put all the hardest pin positions out. Lo and behold, the new rating was a lot higher.

Long story short - course and slope ratings can be wide of the mark.

As someone who has been part of a course rating team your anecdote doesn’t ring true at all, if anything it just demeans the work of volunteers without whom you would either be paying a lot more or have no system.
The process is not simple but it is relatively straightforward, very consistent and has defined measurements at its core. The knowledge, work and experience of the lead raters is remarkable.
Pin positions, drinks and lunch have nothing to do with it

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Answered your own question there!

Somebody told me about another course - I can't remember which course it was and I am hazy on the details admittedly, but the jist of it was that they got the course/slope rating reviewer guys to come back twice because they weren't happy with the initial ratings. It was something along the lines of; the first time they came on a summer's morning, breezed around it and gave it a low rating. The course owners invited them back one afternoon, plied them with drinks and a lunch while the greenkeepers put all the hardest pin positions out. Lo and behold, the new rating was a lot higher.

Long story short - course and slope ratings can be wide of the mark.

As someone who has been part of a course rating team your anecdote doesn’t ring true at all, if anything it just demeans the work of volunteers without whom you would either be paying a lot more or have no system.
The process is not simple but it is relatively straightforward, very consistent and has defined measurements at its core. The knowledge, work and experience of the lead raters is remarkable.
Pin positions, drinks and lunch have nothing to do with it

It sounds like a classic apocryphal story.

 

[jim8flog]

Yep


If you'd manipulated your index you could have been getting 8 orm9 extra within a few weeks.
.

Even back at the start of using the WHS that would not have been possible
(as already said the maximum increase is 5 shots in a rolling calendar year).

 

[Imurg]

Even back at the start of using the WHS that would not have been possible
(as already said the maximum increase is 5 shots in a rolling calendar year).

5 of the shots came from the transition.....his index was virtually the same as his old handicap but the addition of slope gave him 4 or 5 more.
A bit of manipulation and it wouldn't be tricky to get that to 9...the cap can't apply until after transition otherwise he wouldn't have gone up in the following few weeks.

 

[jim8flog]

5 of the shots came from the transition.....his index was virtually the same as his old handicap but the addition of slope gave him 4 or 5 more.
A bit of manipulation and it wouldn't be tricky to get that to 9...the cap can't apply until after transition otherwise he wouldn't have gone up in the following few weeks.

understood

 

[Captain_Black.]

We have 7 net major (board) comps for singles. We have divisions (1= 0-16, 2= 16+).
The overall winner and therefore gets their name on the board is the best net score from either division. There are also divisional prizes. This year, every net major has come from div 2. The average winning handicap is 22 and the average score to net par is -6.
Needless to say the div 1 players are not happy.

Exactly my point in my original post.
Also true at my club & I have sent in a report to our h/c secretary to that effect.

 

[rulefan]

Answered your own question there!

Somebody told me about another course - I can't remember which course it was and I am hazy on the details admittedly, but the jist of it was that they got the course/slope rating reviewer guys to come back twice because they weren't happy with the initial ratings. It was something along the lines of; the first time they came on a summer's morning, breezed around it and gave it a low rating. The course owners invited them back one afternoon, plied them with drinks and a lunch while the greenkeepers put all the hardest pin positions out. Lo and behold, the new rating was a lot higher.

Long story short - course and slope ratings can be wide of the mark.

Absolute nonsense.

Pin positions don't form part of the rating procedure. The size, surface and contours of the green do.
Nor does the weather on the day rating is done.

 

[rulefan]

5 of the shots came from the transition.....his index was virtually the same as his old handicap but the addition of slope gave him 4 or 5 more.

And that is what Slope is for.

 

[D-S]

And that is what Slope is for.

I am sure if the early WHS presentations/introductions had said that ”we don’t believe the right balance of handicaps have been winning competition under the system that we have championed for the past many years, so we are introducing a system that will give higher handicappers 2,3 or 4 more shots in singles, team, matchplay and strokeplay competitions so they will win more competitions“ there might have been more kickback.
I fully understand the rationale behind slope calculation but was certainly not told ‘that is what Slope is for’. If average slope ratings for UK courses was in the 110-115 area then this would not have been an issue but when they turned out to be 125-130 this represents a significant increase in shots obviously for higher handicappers.
I simply don’t seem to remember this being highlighted in the various resources given to clubs before transition.