WHS - current GM article

[Deleted member 30522]

What’s your handicap?
Maybe try and improve your game instead of whinging about how you perceive that the handicap system is garbage.
I’m pretty sure the people that have made the system know what they’re doing.

Are you? Explain why it's already been changed twice then?

 

[Backsticks]

There is no reason to get your handicap down and become less likely to win any comp, sorry but a disagree from several years of experiencing this system.

You are mixing apples and oranges, and like so many, confusing golf level with handicapped competition. Motivation to get ones handicap down is nothing to do with the hc system nor a goal of WHS. Thats entirely your own decision. If you want to play hc competitions, do so, whatever your level. The level will have minimal to to bearing on your chances of winning.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

If you do not want to win....why keep score ?

Because golf is about shooting the best score you can. Makes no odds to me what anyone else shoots.

I don’t play golf to win handicap comps.

If I shoot 75 and get beat in the Sunday stableford by someone off 28 shooting 90. I have still played better than them.

The problem isn’t with WHS, it’s the increase in handicaps.

I also think a HC should favour lower players to incentivise excellence.

 

[AussieKB]

Thats probably as it should be.
In my club, during the season, we have about 120 enriies in our weekend comp. I play 20-25 times a year in them. So I should win once every 4 or 5 years. To not win for 6 or 8 years in a row is perfectly likely.
How many many comps did your single figure man play that year, and how many play in the comps typically ?

No.....not one single handicapper won an event in the whole club..

 

[Deleted member 29109]

No.....not one single handicapper won an event in the whole club..

Too many vanity caps?!

 

[AussieKB]

Too many vanity caps?!

So for a whole year, we did not win one handicap event, that's vanity...ok got it.

 

[Deleted member 15717]

No.....not one single handicapper won an event in the whole club..

#PlayBetter

Facetiousness aside, it seems a very small dataset to go on. I'm a low single figure handicap, and won 4 competitions this year at my club. One was a 4BBB comp where I played with a scratch golfer and we shot 43 points to win.

There is a really good spread of winners at my club, ranging from low to mid handicaps. It's unusual someone with a very high handicap will win, as the course is tough and long. Maybe the course you play at provides conditions that make it easier for higher handicaps to win. Or alternatively, there is just more chance of a higher handicap have a good day and them winning

 

[Crow]

So for a whole year, we did not win one handicap event, that's vanity...ok got it.

Or was it like you say, they'd all thrown their toys out the pram and didn't bother entering?

 

[AussieKB]

#PlayBetter

Facetiousness aside, it seems a very small dataset to go on. I'm a low single figure handicap, and won 4 competitions this year at my club. One was a 4BBB comp where I played with a scratch golfer and we shot 43 points to win.

There is a really good spread of winners at my club, ranging from low to mid handicaps. It's unusual someone with a very high handicap will win, as the course is tough and long. Maybe the course you play at provides conditions that make it easier for higher handicaps to win. Or alternatively, there is just more chance of a higher handicap have a good day and them winning

43 points does not get a mention in 4BBB out here.....and I play in a load of Opens because it is the cheapest way to play other course and I enjoy the challenge. Have not seen 46 points win a 4BBB here in years.

 

[Deleted member 15717]

43 points does not get a mention in 4BBB out here.....and I play in a load of Opens because it is the cheapest way to play other course and I enjoy the challenge. Have not seen 46 points win a 4BBB here in years.

maybe Aussie higher handicaps are better, or the implementation doesn't work properly in Australia.

Sure, there are clubs here that have some daft results, but I'd say they are an exception rather than the rule...but we hear lots of noise as people like to jump up and down and stomp their feet to make noise about it

 

[AussieKB]

We have had WHS for years now, your version is close to ours after we have had 5 changes to the Original, so you are better off.

I have been lucky enough to have had two course records in my time, one in England under the old system and came 2nd, one in OZ under the WHS and did not finish in the top 5

Just missed another this year by a shot....quite happy for a 70 year old.

 

[wjemather]

Not sure what the solution is, but know that high handicappers will continue to win majority of events here, I play with a few guys on 25-26 handicap and they always have at least one 4 point score, over the past year their handicap has moved down a stroke and then back up in the next round or two, so no change, they are quite happy staying there so they can win our 4bbb matchplay that we incorporate, we play every Wednesday and it amazes me the shots they take on, Seve wold chip out, but because it is Stableford they can blow the hole and then make a par on a double shot hole for 4 points.

If they get lucky then it is a par for 3-4 points where the low marker it's par for 2 points, we just cannot risk wiping holes as it is so hard to make a 4 pointer to get it back, so naturally chip out and hope to one putt for par and 2 points.

What is annoying is when you have to keep making birdies for a half.

Isn't that balanced out by the holes you win with a bogey because your high handicap opponent has had a blow up or NR on that hole? To me it's a mindset thing. If you stand on the first tee and acknowledge that you're likely to lose 3/4/5 holes even if you make par but you're likely to win 3/4/5 holes with a bogey then you know that it's the other ten or eleven holes that will decide the match.

I might be talking nonsense. Having never been a very good golfer maybe that's not how it works for low handicappers.

Exactly this. Focusing almost entirely on the 4-pointers they occasionally get and the few holes where birdie (or eagle) is needed for a half is a defeatist mentality; it has to be better to go out there safe in the knowledge that it's far more likely that there will be 0-pointers and holes that will easily be won with bogey or worse.

Maybe attitude is the reason why some very low handicappers continue to win handicap comps and pick up trophies, especially in match play, and some don't.

 

[clubchamp98]

Thats probably as it should be.
In my club, during the season, we have about 120 enriies in our weekend comp. I play 20-25 times a year in them. So I should win once every 4 or 5 years. To not win for 6 or 8 years in a row is perfectly likely.
How many many comps did your single figure man play that year, and how many play in the comps typically ?

Not a gripe but this is my experience of WHS.

Our very low men are usually in the top 10/15 most comps but not won any except Club Championship ( only scratch comp).
There is always one 20+ capper that has his day. Given the sheer amount of them.
But that’s the way this system works apparently .
That must be a tough mindset to keep playing comps and some don’t anymore.

Me personally off 6 cap.
I can’t shoot 68 gross par 72 to have a chance on a regular basis ( done it twice in 40yrs when younger) and as such am really not in the frame to win.
Most single figure cappers can’t compete with scratch guys off scratch and can’t compete with high cappers so are in a bit of limbo
To many are in this situation imo
The data may say it’s fairer but in the real world golfers of many years of playing are not convinced.

 

[Deleted member 23270]

Exactly this. Focusing almost entirely on the 4-pointers they occasionally get and the few holes where birdie (or eagle) is needed for a half is a defeatist mentality; it has to be better to go out there safe in the knowledge that it's far more likely that there will be 0-pointers and holes that will easily be won with bogey or worse.

Maybe attitude is the reason why some very low handicappers continue to win handicap comps and pick up trophies, especially in match play, and some don't.

Maybe it's easy winning in your simplistic world.

My matchplay record is excellent by the way.

 

[Junior]

The issue is one of perception, amongst single digit his and lower, with UK golfers, who have had to change most, as they have lost a privileged advantage over the rest of golfers that they were accustomed to.

Misinformation of the type in the GM article is irrrsponsible and further deepening the mistake of low HIs. Its bad journalism.

Stepping up explanation and information targetted at this group would bring them back on board.

She’s wrote about her experiences and has given her opinion.

It’s not bad journalism because you don’t agree, which of course you’re entitled to do.

It’s provoked a good debate imo and one side will never convince the other on this one.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

She’s wrote about her experiences and given her opinion.

It’s not bad journalism because you don’t agree, which of course you’re entitled to do.

It’s provoked a good debate imo and one side will never convince the other on this one.

But many people confuse these things with facts.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

But many people confuse these things with facts.

The Fergus Bisset article gave the facts, Backsticks doesn't like those either

 

[Jimaroid]

I’m not sure consistency is the right way to think about the problems.

Low handicap golfers are also inconsistent, but because the numbers are smaller their inconsistencies are hidden within rational numbers (behind the decimal point) over many rounds.

My theory is that high handicap players playing to their same mean inconsistency on the day, will see a marginal benefit as it exists in whole numbers in one round.

So outlier scores aren’t the real issue, they will always happen. My theory is low handicaps are simply losing due to this number disadvantage you get as numbers get smaller. If you remove the outliers a high handicap playing to their mean will beat a low handicapper playing to their mean within a couple of points or 1 stroke. The gripe from the GM article of “Beaten on the 17th hole“ may be this problem in effect.

Divisions prevented this. And trying to create a level playing field with higher handicaps is making the problem worse in visible terms.

Because I have no data I can’t test this theory. I might be wrong. People keep looking at the outlier scores and I don’t think that’s the issue really.

 

[Swango1980]

There are more than 100 active lady members and she's moaning because she only won once? How many didn't win at all? How many of the non-winners were higher handicappers?

Shep, if I were you I'd keep quiet about handicaps....

 

[Swango1980]

Lower handicappers should simply remember that the handicap system isn't about helping people win competitions. Sure, a low handicapper will probably struggle to ever shoot significantly below their handicap and win a competition that contains many high handicappers, but I think the general feeling is they should just shut their mouths and be happy that they can at least put in consistently decent scores and keep a low handicap. They should also enjoy paying their entry fees to fund the lovely prizes the high handicappers get

O yeah, we are told that one solution is to have divisions. However, I'm not sure that is great if you have a club with a low number of very low handicappers and most of everyone else medium to high. You either have to have a division that only has a few low handicappers in it, or expand the division handicap range, but it can still mean the odd very low handicapper consistently having to compete with a good volume of 10-18 handicappers, or whatever split is chosen. I'd still think the 10-18 guys, individually, have a higher chance of winning than the scratch player.