WHS abuse

[IanM]

Given all this excellent engagement and information, what is your assessment of the level of acceptance and understanding?

Ps. Saying "They didn't read it" would have got me sacked (and probably sued)

 

[Slab]

The recent chats got me thinking about my own Comp/GP split so I did a check and wondering whether it would be a ‘flag’

My last 20 counting scores are split evenly between Comps and General Play, however I now see my best 8 scores are all general play rounds!
But half the last 20 scoring rounds are also spread across four different courses for both comps and GP rounds played at away courses (& only half of my best 8 are from my home course)
I can play in max 1-2 'acceptable' comps per month

My handicap has come down 3 strokes in the 8 months covering last 20 scores & no comp prizes obviously

 

[Jigger]

EH? You'll have to clarify that, by politics do you mean incompetence?

The two usually come hand in hand but it’s clear in this case the egos have gotten in the way of unity.

 

[Backsticks]

Given all this excellent engagement and information, what is your assessment of the level of acceptance and understanding?

Ps. Saying "They didn't read it" would have got me sacked (and probably sued)

The sacked/sued scenario applies because you had a responsibility or duty of care to another party maybe ?

With WHS, the system is ours, designed by us effectively, and we ourselves are the ones with the responsibility to know it, and comply with it.

 

[IanM]

The sacked/sued scenario applies because you had a responsibility or duty of care to another party maybe ?

With WHS, the system is ours, designed by us effectively, and we ourselves are the ones with the responsibility to know it, and comply with it.

Maybe, I can see that, but I would like to think those at the top of game wouldn't see it like that. But I'd be wrong! (If you see what I mean)

 

[Backsticks]

Maybe, I can see that, but I would like to think those at the top of game wouldn't see it like that. But I'd be wrong! (If you see what I mean)

I do.

I dont know if the rest of the golfing world is going through the same trauma though. I think much of the reaction here all stems from an 'its not UHS' coloured view. And the removal of perceived safeguard against manipulation. Even if the vulnerability/paranoia is more theoretical than real.

The coinciding, almost, of the raising of the 28hc limit, was unfortunate, as I think it may be more to blame for the occasional, or rampant if you believe the urban myth, 50+ points scores. And that has fed into WHS blaming.

 

[nickjdavis]

I do.

I dont know if the rest of the golfing world is going through the same trauma though. I think much of the reaction here all stems from an 'its not UHS' coloured view. And the removal of perceived safeguard against manipulation. Even if the vulnerability/paranoia is more theoretical than real.

The coinciding, almost, of the raising of the 28hc limit, was unfortunate, as I think it may be more to blame for the occasional, or rampant if you believe the urban myth, 50+ points scores. And that has fed into WHS blaming.

Sorry...not even close to coinciding....there were 34 months from when 54 h'caps were introduced (Jan 2018) until the WHS came into being (Nov 2020)....this is one myth that needs to be stopped being propogated I'm afraid, otherwise clarity of where the real issues lie will be lost.

 

[IanM]

For what it's worth, I think the new system is much better. Higher scores eminate from the difference in the nature of whs handicaps when compared with old system.

My issue is with the peripheral noises and the imposition of certain fundamental changes that were not part of the brief. (No need to go over old ground)

The guys I play with have never been near a golf forum and "just key in their score " after a qualifying round. They have never put in a general play card in their lives and are totally unaware of the chatter.

Maybe that's the best approach.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

By posting, I mean submit for handicap, which of course you would have to do to wherever you handicap is held.

I am well aware what you meant, and no, your score goes to your home handicapping authority, and your scores for handicap have to comply with that

 

[Banchory Buddha]

2.1a(ii) Round Played Outside a Player’s Jurisdiction.
Subject to other provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping:
l A score from an authorized format of play within the jurisdiction where the
round was played is acceptable for handicap purposes and must be
submitted, even if the format of play is not authorized in a player’s home
jurisdiction.

Hold my hands up there, what a lot of sharn then. you'll be defending that as well I presume?

 

[Slab]

Sorry...not even close to coinciding....there were 34 months from when 54 h'caps were introduced (Jan 2018) until the WHS came into being (Nov 2020)....this is one myth that needs to be stopped being propogated I'm afraid, otherwise clarity of where the real issues lie will be lost.

To be fair even the R&A website linked the two events together in coincidence timeline (as reported here)

and WHS was Jan 2020 wasn't it... but done late in the UK and some other areas

 

[Banchory Buddha]

The two usually come hand in hand but it’s clear in this case the egos have gotten in the way of unity.

Unity is the least of the issues with WHS

 

[rulefan]

Is the problem actually as widespread as some people are making out? I know that no system is perfect and some people, if they are so inclined, will find ways to 'get round' the system but looking at some of the posts you would think that over half of all gofers are cheats and most general play cards are submitted fraudulently. I am sure this isn't the case and some people have been spending too much time listening to gossip in the bar or posts on this forum!

Prior to WHS and possibly still true now, the big cheating problem related to 4BBB Opens. During my various times with the EGU, County and my club handicapping committees, numerous cases were reported and significant action was taken. This could be suspension or loss of handicap down to refusal of entry.
Players would deliberately return many poor competition (and sometimes supplementary) scores. Then two of them would enter top 4BBB opens with high value prizes ranging through holidays, vouchers and equipment. A few disciplinary cases were reported in the golfing press but most were actioned by EG, the County or clubs quietly.
I officiate at scratch competitions and have not heard any comments from players about their club handicap comps being won by high cappers with outlandish scores.

 

[Swango1980]

Sorry...not even close to coinciding....there were 34 months from when 54 h'caps were introduced (Jan 2018) until the WHS came into being (Nov 2020)....this is one myth that needs to be stopped being propogated I'm afraid, otherwise clarity of where the real issues lie will be lost.

I do agree with this, certainly not a WHS issue. However, I'd caveat this in the sense that I can probably see why many regular golfers perceive this to be a WHS thing. Dependent on the club they are at.

When the Max of 28 was increased, I'd wonder what each club did? As I was handicap secretary at the time, I reviewed all players with a 28.0 handicap and reviewed many of their latest scores. Based on their best scores, I'd calculate what their new handicap would be if it was being calculated from scratch. Discussed this at Committee, and then increased their handicap accordingly to a more appropriate value. Didn't impact many competition players (mostly seniors), and I think the max handicap we needed to give anyone was 33-35. There were several golfers that begged not to go up, as they somehow felt going above 28 suddenly turned them into a bad golfer, or they had a guilty conscience.

However, I wonder if many clubs made no analysis or adjustments? If not, anyone who happened to be on 28.0 would have just started to slowly creep up 0.1 at a time. Perhaps new golfers would have got a high handicap. So, if these high handicappers were few and far between (or rarely played), and new golfers of poorer ability were never really seen in competitions, it is understandable why many members at these clubs never really noticed the lifting of the 28 cap.

Then, WHS comes in, and everyone's handicap was automatically changed to reflect their scoring history from Jan 2018. The 28 cap had zero meaning now, and so a reasonable amount of these high handicap golfers may suddenly have seen a noticeable increase beyond 28. Throw in the surge of new golfers after lockdown, that directly coincided with transition to WHS, and that will have potentially thrown up many more very high handicaps. We then have the perfect storm where normal golfers, who know little about the official guidelines of handicap systems, suddenly see mega high handicaps and associate them with WHS. They can be forgiven, there was a lot to take in, and I'd say many are still confused by what many of us would consider basic elements of WHS

 

[D-S]

I am well aware what you meant, and no, your score goes to your home handicapping authority, and your scores for handicap have to comply with that

No they don't.

 

[CountLippe]

The recent chats got me thinking about my own Comp/GP split so I did a check and wondering whether it would be a ‘flag’

My last 20 counting scores are split evenly between Comps and General Play, however I now see my best 8 scores are all general play rounds!
But half the last 20 scoring rounds are also spread across four different courses for both comps and GP rounds played at away courses (& only half of my best 8 are from my home course)
I can play in max 1-2 'acceptable' comps per month

My handicap has come down 3 strokes in the 8 months covering last 20 scores & no comp prizes obviously

That doesn't really surprise me. I understand you don't play in the UK, but in my experience, our course plays at least 1 shot harder on Saturday comp day. Tees at the tombstones, harder pins, greens faster.

 

[nickjdavis]

To be fair even the R&A website linked the two events together in coincidence timeline (as reported here)

and WHS was Jan 2020 wasn't it... but done late in the UK and some other areas

I guess that the continued highlighting of 54 handicaps being part of the WHS may have lead to many thinking that 54 h'cap was a new WHS thing.

Yes most of the world implemented in Q1 of 2020 (the date we in the UK were originally supposed to launch as well) but we ended up putting the launch date back.

 

[nickjdavis]

I do agree with this, certainly not a WHS issue. However, I'd caveat this in the sense that I can probably see why many regular golfers perceive this to be a WHS thing. Dependent on the club they are at.

When the Max of 28 was increased, I'd wonder what each club did? As I was handicap secretary at the time, I reviewed all players with a 28.0 handicap and reviewed many of their latest scores. Based on their best scores, I'd calculate what their new handicap would be if it was being calculated from scratch. Discussed this at Committee, and then increased their handicap accordingly to a more appropriate value. Didn't impact many competition players (mostly seniors), and I think the max handicap we needed to give anyone was 33-35. There were several golfers that begged not to go up, as they somehow felt going above 28 suddenly turned them into a bad golfer, or they had a guilty conscience.

If I remember correctly our handicap secretary did a similar thing, looked at the scores and recommended adjustments. The most we saw a player go up to was 33.

I think the biggest fear that was constantly raised as being an inevitability was that the club would be inundated by new golfers with a 54 handicap who would win everything. This has not been the case at all. I think I can count on my thumb the number of golfers who have been allocated an initial handicap of anything in the 50's over the past 4 years.

Even now we only have 11 golfers with an index higher than 35 (550 male members) with just three of them in the 40's. With 2 exceptions all of them are in the 60+ age bracket and all of them are seemingly steady golfers who shoot 4 or 5 shots either side of their handicap....mostly playing general play....the odd one or two showing signs of declining ability and those who do play the odd comps certainly do not have a handicap that is wrong for them that would put them at an unfair advantage.

 

[clubchamp98]

Is golf normally not played for pleasure?

Sometimes with a card in your hand it’s anything but pleasurable.

 

[D-S]

However players with an index of 28 often get 31 or 32 shots (I know for all the good reasons etc.etc.) whereas they only received 28 before.