Who wins?

[Dibby]

Dunno, the fella who said it to me was the Pro at Sandiway.

Doing the maths, they would already have 36 putts, as such to play with, so if a par of 72 they would have an extra 28. So in effect 64 putts to end up with 100 shots.

64 divided by 18 is 3.55 putts per green.

3 or 4 putts on every green? Not impossible, but I havent played on Augusta's greens. They are notorious though and is the same stimp as the masters, dont think it would be too far away. I'd say breaking 90 would be good in that situation, put it that way.

Are you taking it as that they are starting on the front of the green and counting the number of shots it would have been to be a GIR?

Not having heard the statement before, I took it at face value of the handicapper starting on the front of the green, which would give 5.55 putts per green, so basically they could 6 putt 9 greens, 5 putt the rest and still make it with a shot to spare.

 

[Roops]

On the assumption that you mean that the green is missed every time by either player. (this point is not made clear in the original question)

Judging by a lot of 18 handicappers I play with I would go with by B.

The short game and putting is what makes the big difference between an 18 handicapper and a low single figure/pro the vast majority of the time. You could expect the pro to chip in or up down in two far more times than an 18 handicapper.

Exactly this. B, all day long. Even if the 18 handicapper is in the crap around the green in 2, the chances are the pro would get up and down, or possibly chip in. Those guys are so consistent from around 4-5 feet, chipping, bunkers.

 

[Wolf]

A wins all day long.

I think it's already been said about Mark Broudies study on this. Plus there was a podcast I listened to Late last year I think was one of the Talking Golf episodes where he was chatting to another coach possibly Denis Pugh, and it was agreed that if a Pro took all an amateurs tee shots with their length and consistency it would hugely improve someone's scores more than if the Pro took their short game shots. I believe the reason they gave was the inconsistency of the amateur meant it could take to many shots to get to the green and still not be close enough to have makeable putts. But if the Pro played the long game for them around the average length course the amateurs play the Pro would often over power it and leave them within 10feet on par 4s and 5s alone allowing the amateur to at least 2 putt every green so score would be nearer level par every time.

 

[Orikoru]

Exactly this. B, all day long. Even if the 18 handicapper is in the crap around the green in 2, the chances are the pro would get up and down, or possibly chip in. Those guys are so consistent from around 4-5 feet, chipping, bunkers.

Do you really think the worst case scenario for an 18 handicapper is just missing the green for two? Haha.

 

[Roops]

It's going to be ying and yang, some holes they may not reach in 3, others they may reach in 2, Par 3's they may be on in 1. I am basing it on the 18's/19's that we play against regularly, most of them are very capable of making pars and birdies, with the odd shocker.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Are you taking it as that they are starting on the front of the green and counting the number of shots it would have been to be a GIR?

Not having heard the statement before, I took it at face value of the handicapper starting on the front of the green, which would give 5.55 putts per green, so basically they could 6 putt 9 greens, 5 putt the rest and still make it with a shot to spare.

Are you sure?

Par is 72 at Augusta. so if you place them on the front of every green for 36 shots (GIR), that leaves 63 putts to come in on 99. 63 divided by 18 is 3.5 putts per green.

I've played some tough courses in the UK that can see you walk off with 40 plus putts, I think Augusta on tournament greens would be a car crash as even 3 footers can be mad and still see you end up 10 foot away if you miss on the high side.

 

[Dibby]

Are you sure?

Par is 72 at Augusta. so if you place them on the front of every green for 36 shots (GIR), that leaves 63 putts to come in on 99. 63 divided by 18 is 3.5 putts per green.

I've played some tough courses in the UK that can see you walk off with 40 plus putts, I think Augusta on tournament greens would be a car crash as even 3 footers can be mad and still see you end up 10 foot away if you miss on the high side.

Yes, re-read the statement, the handicapper is starting on the front of the green, and the pro from the back tees.

Wasn't it Paul McGinley, who reckoned he could beat a handicapper (can;t remember the handicap), if the amateur's ball was on the front fringe and he played from the back tees?

Unless your interpretation of starting is different to how I understand it, the handicapper has 100 puts to complete 18 holes, or 5.55 putts per hole.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Yes, re-read the statement, the handicapper is starting on the front of the green, and the pro from the back tees.



Unless your interpretation of starting is different to how I understand it, the handicapper has 100 puts to complete 18 holes, or 5.55 putts per hole.

Sorry, at cross-purposes, I wasnt doing the A vs B thing.

 

[MendieGK]

It's going to be ying and yang, some holes they may not reach in 3, others they may reach in 2, Par 3's they may be on in 1. I am basing it on the 18's/19's that we play against regularly, most of them are very capable of making pars and birdies, with the odd shocker.

b has absolutely no chance of winning this. 0%, zilch. Nothing

 

[sunshine]

The short game and putting is what makes the big difference between an 18 handicapper and a low single figure/pro the vast majority of the time.

No way. You can't have played with a pro before. Driving and long game is the big difference.

 

[jim8flog]

No way. You can't have played with a pro before. Driving and long game is the big difference.

I have played with loads of Pros and very low single figure players.

Back in my younger days I could hit the ball the same sort of distances as most pros and longer than some I played with but it was always their short games that stood out to me.

I remember the first one I played with very well, Nigel Blenkarne, and it taught me a lot, he sprayed the driver all over the shop, including places I did not know existed, He went round in 4 over gross with just 23 putts in his score.

 

[Scozzy]

I totally get broadies theory(s) but it's hardly a revelation is it?? Hit it further and closer and you're bound to score better!?! I'm sure old Tom told young Tom the same thing a few hundred years ago..money for old rope.. for 99.9% of us hacks the way forward is become better from 30 yds and in and you will be alright ,in any case it's A for me on this one assuming pro hits all shots to green

 

[Homer]

The short game and putting is what makes the big difference between an 18 handicapper and a low single figure/pro the vast majority of the time. You could expect the pro to chip in or up down in two far more times than an 18 handicapper.

No it isn’t - they also take 1/2/3 less shots on every hole to get to near the green!

 

[Orikoru]

No it isn’t - they also take 1/2/3 less shots on every hole to get to near the green!

Agreed. Speaking as a 20 handicapper who should be off 18 by now... I will have days where I chip and putt well, with no three putts and a few up and downs, but even on my good days I won't hit more than 5 or 6 greens in regulation. Long game is the biggest difference that separates mid-handicappers from low & scratch more often than not.

 

[Hobbit]

Agreed. Speaking as a 20 handicapper who should be off 18 by now... I will have days where I chip and putt well, with no three putts and a few up and downs, but even on my good days I won't hit more than 5 or 6 greens in regulation. Long game is the biggest difference that separates mid-handicappers from low & scratch more often than not.

In the last 20 years I'd say I'm not overly long off the tee but I can chip and putt well. In the last 5 years I'd say most players, irrespective of handicap, knock it well past me - old age. I might hit a few more fairways but what has always set me apart from the mid/high handicappers is chipping and putting. Hitting 3 more fairways might make me 3 shots better. Hitting a few more greens will take it to 6 shots better. Where do I get the other 5 or 6 shots? Chipping and putting.

Every aspect of the game makes a difference but its saving shots around the green that has the biggest impact.

 

[Orikoru]

In the last 20 years I'd say I'm not overly long off the tee but I can chip and putt well. In the last 5 years I'd say most players, irrespective of handicap, knock it well past me - old age. I might hit a few more fairways but what has always set me apart from the mid/high handicappers is chipping and putting. Hitting 3 more fairways might make me 3 shots better. Hitting a few more greens will take it to 6 shots better. Where do I get the other 5 or 6 shots? Chipping and putting.

Every aspect of the game makes a difference but its saving shots around the green that has the biggest impact.

I think you're the exception rather than majority. I think it's more common for 18-odd handicappers to have a dodgy long game than it is for them to have a solid long game but lose shots around the green. I think people who do have a solid long game but lose shots around the ground tend to be more likely 12-13 sort of range. Even when I play with guys who are in the 12-13 sort of range, I often notice the only difference between them and me is their better long game, being able to hit fairway woods consistently and so on.

Obviously I can only base this on the cross section of people I've played with, all of us may have different experiences in our own clubs.

 

[Hobbit]

I think you're the exception rather than majority. I think it's more common for 18-odd handicappers to have a dodgy long game than it is for them to have a solid long game but lose shots around the green. I think people who do have a solid long game but lose shots around the ground tend to be more likely 12-13 sort of range. Even when I play with guys who are in the 12-13 sort of range, I often notice the only difference between them and me is their better long game, being able to hit fairway woods consistently and so on.

Obviously I can only base this on the cross section of people I've played with, all of us may have different experiences in our own clubs.

There are exceptions to every rule. I've seen 20 handicappers with fantastic long games but would 3 putt nearly every green.

In the last 15 years the guys that have beaten me, almost every time, in scratch matchplay have done so because they have sunk 2 or 3 exceptional putts. Yes they've been 10-20 yards longer but what does that mean when they're shooting for the green? I hit a 7 iron and they hit a 9 iron. They might get the odd one or two closer but that doesn't guarantee them sinking the putt. Its the few long putts that are the difference.

But if you're talking about mid handicappers hitting greens with fairway woods, it rarely happens. They might well knock it further down the fairway on a par 5 or long par 4 but it doesn't guarantee a better score on the hole.

 

[Orikoru]

There are exceptions to every rule. I've seen 20 handicappers with fantastic long games but would 3 putt nearly every green.

In the last 15 years the guys that have beaten me, almost every time, in scratch matchplay have done so because they have sunk 2 or 3 exceptional putts. Yes they've been 10-20 yards longer but what does that mean when they're shooting for the green? I hit a 7 iron and they hit a 9 iron. They might get the odd one or two closer but that doesn't guarantee them sinking the putt. Its the few long putts that are the difference.

But if you're talking about mid handicappers hitting greens with fairway woods, it rarely happens. They might well knock it further down the fairway on a par 5 or long par 4 but it doesn't guarantee a better score on the hole.

For me that sort of thing does make a huge difference though. If you take it back a bit and say 6 iron v 8 iron, I'd probably hit the green about 20% of the time with the 6 iron or 50% with the 8 iron. Back further and say 5 iron v 7 iron, it's more like 5% and 40% because I can't hit the poxy 5 iron. So for me, the difference is long game because (a) I'd be hitting shorter irons into the greens, or (b) hitting the longer irons wouldn't be a problem anyway. I'm only one person but I'm sure a lot are in the same boat.

 

[Homer]

There are exceptions to every rule. I've seen 20 handicappers with fantastic long games but would 3 putt nearly every green.

In the last 15 years the guys that have beaten me, almost every time, in scratch matchplay have done so because they have sunk 2 or 3 exceptional putts. Yes they've been 10-20 yards longer but what does that mean when they're shooting for the green? I hit a 7 iron and they hit a 9 iron. They might get the odd one or two closer but that doesn't guarantee them sinking the putt. Its the few long putts that are the difference.

It means they will hit it closer to the flag with less club and therefore have more chance of holing the putt, which is why they score better than you and have a lower handicap. Their bad days will beat your bad days and their good days beat your good days. 9 times out of 10 they will beat you because you don’t hit it far enough to be any better than you are

 

[robinthehood]

Don't confuse long game and hitting the ball a long way.