Waiting for a cut

[duncan mackie]

I fully expect the AWAY scores from Monday to be processed before the next time I play which is Sunday. I've been publishing our handicap database numerous times this week which would pull down any AWAY scores/adjustments. I've checked the CDH numerous times also but the scores have not been put into their system yet.

my expectations are that either they are done quickly, or they simply don't get done.

when contacted the 'explanations' of the relevant organisers in the later cases being varied!

I agree that, overall, the combination of manual entries and the constant need to monitor for dupication, is worse than the 'old ways' - hence my comment that the CDH system really needs to become more consistently used to help in the management of playing records.

 

[sawtooth]

my expectations are that either they are done quickly, or they simply don't get done.

when contacted the 'explanations' of the relevant organisers in the later cases being varied!

I agree that, overall, the combination of manual entries and the constant need to monitor for dupication, is worse than the 'old ways' - hence my comment that the CDH system really needs to become more consistently used to help in the management of playing records.

Just been speaking to the comp organiser who will re-submit the scores later today, for some reason they did not get uploaded on the day.

 

[Odvan]

I have no handicap, never have, never been a member of anyway etc so please forgive me for what might be the silliest question on here (today )...


If someone knows their handicap is getting cut but computer says 'no' and the next comp comes along you guys on here are saying that he should play off the new (lower) handicap that hasn't yet been made official. I get that bit, the integrity, gentlemans sport etc but, what then if the same chap scored 1 point in his Stableford and was expecting his 'cap to go higher - computer has said no and he rocks up saying he's off 11 instead of 10 (because he knows how to work it out). His fellow competitors aren't going to say 'aye alright then, play on son', are they???!?!

Now if they would, fair do's but i doubt that so why apply the 'integrity/gentlemans mentality' if it didn't work the other way?

I'm expecting any responses to be blindlingly obvious, i think! So again, do excuse my ignorance.

 

[sawtooth]

"rocks up saying he's off 11 instead of 10 (because he knows how to work it out). His fellow competitors aren't going to say 'aye alright then, play on son', are they???!?!"

Unless its a match, the players handicap should not be of any concern to his fellow competitors. If the player wants to put hcap 11 on the card then that's his right. It will be checked by the handicap official at the club after the round and if its decided that he played off the wrong hcap then there are 2 possible outcomes:_

1. Said player is disqualified if he put a higher handicap down on the card then what he actually is
2. or if he put down a lower handicap on his card then what he actually is, his score will then be calculated against that hcap (just for that round). Therefore penalising himself effectively.

 

[Odvan]

Unless its a match, the players handicap should not be of any concern to his fellow competitors. If the player wants to put hcap 11 on the card then that's his right. It will be checked by the handicap official at the club after the round

Ok, cheers - so basically all checks are done after rather than before. Which begs the question, the computer is still saying 'no' before the event but the upload goes through during the event. In the event of 'cap going higher, you simply lose a shot but in the case of it going lower?

I assume the system displays before and afters and has event dates/times logged. Once a player goes out on one handicap but comes back in to see a lower one on the system having already handed his match card in then would he be able to avoid disqualification?

 

[sawtooth]

I think this was touched on earlier by someone else. Its the players responsibility to know their handicap going into a round. If they played a round and they suspect that it has not yet hit the system then they ought to air on the side of caution and play themselves off the lower handicap on the day.

Otherwise, in the scenario that you painted above he/she will run the risk of disqualification. I think I am right in saying that (however unlikely it may be) if a player starts a round with one handicap and signs the card, but in the meantime the system updates reflecting a newer , lower handicap then he/she will be DQ'd. It is ultimately the players responsibility to know their handicap and ignorance is not an excuse.

 

[Foxholer]

Unless its a match, the players handicap should not be of any concern to his fellow competitors. If the player wants to put hcap 11 on the card then that's his right. It will be checked by the handicap official at the club after the round and if its decided that he played off the wrong hcap then there are 2 possible outcomes:_

1. Said player is disqualified if he put a higher handicap down on the card then what he actually is
2. or if he put down a lower handicap on his card then what he actually is, his score will then be calculated against that hcap (just for that round). Therefore penalising himself effectively.

Actually, there's a 3rd possible outcome.
3. If Comp is closed before it's discovered that someone has played off a higher handicap than due, then that score counts.

An unscrupulous player (ie a Cheat!) who has had a good recent Away round could 'try it on'!

At the moment, you are in breach of Congu's rules (8.10) though you may be able to argue about the meaning of 'practical'. It's actually your responsibility, not the Competition Organisers. As a Handicap Secy yourself, that's pretty dodgy!

I think I am right in saying that (however unlikely it may be) if a player starts a round with one handicap and signs the card, but in the meantime the system updates reflecting a newer , lower handicap then he/she will be DQ'd. It is ultimately the players responsibility to know their handicap and ignorance is not an excuse.

There is 1 situation where a DQ would be inappropriate - though not relevant in this thread's case.

If a player reports an away score, but doesn't know the CSS, then he should use SSS for any handicap adjustment. If CSS goes up, then it's possible that his resultant handicap could be lower than the one calculated using SSS. He should not be DQ-ed if that is what has happened. In this case, ignorance actually IS and excuse.

 

[sawtooth]

Point 3 is a possibility but shouldn't really happen. Club computers are linked to the CDH and AWAY scores are continuously being passed from one club to another.

I guess if the club where the AWAY score was produced did not upload the score into the CDH in a timely fashion and the player was that way inclined then there is that window for somebody to exploit the system.

There has been no breach of 8.10 here, my group of players have each told me what they scored and I already know the par, CSS and SSS. I did not execute the adjustments straightaway but that's not a breach AFAIK and its only because we don't play again until Sunday and I am expecting the upload to happen before then. Indeed it should have happened by now but the comp organiser explained the issue earlier.

I've made the changes to the club database and will either undo the manual adjustment and accept the AWAY scores when they come through or vice versa. Keep what I have and ignore the AWAY score.

I don't understand your last point Foxholer, but I cannot see any circumstances why the player would not know the CSS, After all they only have to ask the club where the comp was played after it had finished. I thought that Rule 8.10 required the player to submit the CSS with the other details? The CSS for this particular comp is published on the results online and normally all of the information is passed electronically from club to club (when the system works!)!)

 

[Foxholer]

I don't understand your last point Foxholer, but I cannot see any circumstances why the player would not know the CSS, After all they only have to ask the club where the comp was played after it had finished. I thought that Rule 8.10 required the player to submit the CSS with the other details? The CSS for this particular comp is published on the results online and normally all of the information is passed electronically from club to club (when the system works!)!)

An example then.
Player plays in a competition and possibly cut, but leaves before competition finished - so CSS is unknown. Away club may not actually publish scores immediately - or to a publicly available repository.

Player then plays in another competition the following morning - but off what handicap?

Rules are that SSS should be used in the interim.

Here's an extract from Congu FAQs on Away Scores: http://www.congu.com/faqs/players_responsibility.pdf

- If you return a Qualifying Score(s) below your Playing Handicap at your
Home Club or away and you are unable to
- ascertain whether or not your Playing Handicap has been reduced as a
result of the score(s) or
-report an away score to your Home Club
you must, before playing in another competition at your Home Club or away,
for that competition make such reduction to your Playing Handicap as
appropriate under the System by applying the Competition Scratch Score, if
known, otherwise the Standard Scratch Score, to calculate your Net
Differential and handicap reduction. If you do not know your Exact Handicap, such reduction should be made from
your Playing Handicap less 0.5 (e.g. if your Playing Handicap is 16 then the
reduction should be made from 15.5) See Clause 16.11

 

[sawtooth]

Cheers that is worth knowing in case I get a call from a player in that position asking for help!

 

[rosecott]

One point which seems to have been overlooked, although Duncan touched on it. Systems such as HowdidIdo and its Handicapmaster counterpart, Masterscoreboard, are not in themselves the official handicap "bible". CONGU makes it quite clear that all handicap changes must be displayed in a prominent place at the club - normally the club notice board. Talk about system updates and publishing online does not absolve the club from the requirement to physically post handicap adjustments.

 

[Foxholer]

One point which seems to have been overlooked, although Duncan touched on it. Systems such as HowdidIdo and its Handicapmaster counterpart, Masterscoreboard, are not in themselves the official handicap "bible". CONGU makes it quite clear that all handicap changes must be displayed in a prominent place at the club - normally the club notice board. Talk about system updates and publishing online does not absolve the club from the requirement to physically post handicap adjustments.

From the HDID thread!

Be aware that HowDidIDo does not store your actual Handicap details and is not the actual record of your results. It is merely a convenient place for those clubs that use Club2000's system to 'publish' results for general availability.

The actual details of your handicap are those stored on Club2000 and posted on the Club Notice Board.

There are many things that can prevent publication of comps onto HDID, even when they have been published at the Club.

I agree!

In this case though, the results and CSS (from the Monday comp) were available online.

And in the case (such as this on) of Away results, the Home Club doesn't actiually kno about ny changes until the player reports them.

 

[rosecott]

And another point - does anyone know if all clubs are active on CDH?

 

[sawtooth]

I normally print and post up a new handicap list on the notice board once a week. This just shows the exact handicap accurate at the time of printing. Club competition result sheets also go up that show all of the handicap adjustments.

Currently I dont put up AWAY score adjustments. This will create a bit more work but it is something I can look at doing.

 

[lyden]

Ive played 3 away opens this year 27-30 points in each, never gone up so much as 0.1. I believe from the rules its not my responsibility to increase my handicap, so clearly this linked system you speak of doesnt work.

 

[Foxholer]

Ive played 3 away opens this year 27-30 points in each, never gone up so much as 0.1. I believe from the rules its not my responsibility to increase my handicap, so clearly this linked system you speak of doesnt work.

You mis-interpret the requirement.

You are not allowed to increase your handicap from an away round - it has to be reported back to your Home club, either by you or through CDH (happens Direct if both clubs are Club 2000/HDID)

It is your responsibility to report ALL Away scores to your Home Club. You should do so asap.

 

[needmoreclub]

Not wanting to highjack the thread, but having knowledgable guys on just now, can anyone advise if you need to do something with HDIDO to update the h/caps? i input an away score and our master hcap list now shows the guys new hcap , but HDIDO still shows his old one, again sorry for going off topic.

 

[palindromicbob]

If a player reports an away score, but doesn't know the CSS, then he should use SSS for any handicap adjustment. If CSS goes up, then it's possible that his resultant handicap could be lower than the one calculated using SSS. He should not be DQ-ed if that is what has happened. In this case, ignorance actually IS and excuse.

Hmm think I may have just fallen foul to this one. Played on Wednesday in an open at Dundalk. Par 72 course SSS 71. Scored 37 points. Figured no cut based on SSS but even basing it on par a 0.3 cut would take me to 19.6 having no effect on my Playing HC. Have been unable to report to my home club yet because I've been so busy travelling and playing!

Checked yesterday before playing an open still no results and nothing has come through on Golfnet. Checked this evening after returning from a second away comp. Results now published on the Dundalk website and found them on Golfnet. CSS for Home player remained 71 but Away players was 73. So should be a 0.6 cut. This would take me down from 19.9 to 19.3. Played open comps on Thursday and Friday off 20 (having based possible cut on SSS) now turns out now this probably wasn't accurate. Will inform the club tomorrow when someone should actually be around to help me out. Irony being that unless one of the two comps I played over the last two days becomes RO I'm due to be back to 20 without ever having played of an official 19 HC.

Last time this happened I had a bigger gap between comps and applied a self cut based on SSS and adjusted it again as soon as I found out CSS. Reported the result on the Monday after the Saturday comp. Still took over a week before it got made official.

 

[Foxholer]

Hmm think I may have just fallen foul to this one. Played on Wednesday in an open at Dundalk. Par 72 course SSS 71. Scored 37 points. Figured no cut based on SSS but even basing it on par a 0.3 cut would take me to 19.6 having no effect on my Playing HC. Have been unable to report to my home club yet because I've been so busy travelling and playing!

Checked yesterday before playing an open still no results and nothing has come through on Golfnet. Checked this evening after returning from a second away comp. Results now published on the Dundalk website and found them on Golfnet. CSS for Home player remained 71 but Away players was 73. So should be a 0.6 cut. This would take me down from 19.9 to 19.3. Played open comps on Thursday and Friday off 20 (having based possible cut on SSS) now turns out now this probably wasn't accurate. Will inform the club tomorrow when someone should actually be around to help me out. Irony being that unless one of the two comps I played over the last two days becomes RO I'm due to be back to 20 without ever having played of an official 19 HC.

Last time this happened I had a bigger gap between comps and applied a self cut based on SSS and adjusted it again as soon as I found out CSS. Reported the result on the Monday after the Saturday comp. Still took over a week before it got made official.

Now that you know what the CSS was - and that you were due to go to Playing of 19, then that's what future comps should be off - until the 2 * 0.1s get recorded at your home club.

 

[Foxholer]

Not wanting to highjack the thread, but having knowledgable guys on just now, can anyone advise if you need to do something with HDIDO to update the h/caps? i input an away score and our master hcap list now shows the guys new hcap , but HDIDO still shows his old one, again sorry for going off topic.

Been a while, but I seem to remember a separate 'Publish Handicap List' in the HDID interface.

Handicap List goes up each time a Comp is sent, so simply republishing the latest comp should send the list up too.

If neither of those work, give the Club2000 Help Desk a call.