"Virtually certain"

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Can some kind soul clarify the above meaning in relation to a ball lost in a water hazard.

Played Sunday with my dad hit my approach into our 8th, which has a large pond, surrounded by steep banking directly behind the temp green.

I hit my approach and saw the ball heading towards the green. We saw it catch a tree on the way down (at side of green) and assumed it would be there or there abouts.

When we got to the green. No ball. Looked for a while, still no joy.

The tree is located about 10 yards from the hazard.

We saw the ball hit the tree on it's way down and continue forward towards the hazard.

Here's the area in question

WP_201209153.jpg


The temp green is located just back of the bunker in centre shot. You can just make out the branches of the tree in question

Question

With the above in mind, and in relation to the thread title, can I be virtually certain the ball is in the hazard at take a drop next to the hazard?

or

Can I not be virtually certain as we did not see the ball enter the hazard and have to play a stroke and distance penalty?

Any help appreciated.
 
For me, it's about whether there is anywhere in the area that you can realistically lose a ball.
If everywhere around is low cut grass then if you can't find the ball then the only place it can be is in the drink..
If there's rough or similar in the vicinity then you may lose a ball in there.

Looks to me, from the picture, that if. You can't see it outside then it's probably inside..
 
In my view you or your partner must have seen it enter the hazard, assuming it went in there as you cannot find it isn't good enough. I may be wrong but that is what I thought the rule was.
 
Imurg said:
For me, it's about whether there is anywhere in the area that you can realistically lose a ball.
If everywhere around is low cut grass then if you can't find the ball then the only place it can be is in the drink..
If there's rough or similar in the vicinity then you may lose a ball in there.

Looks to me, from the picture, that if. You can't see it outside then it's probably inside..
Click to expand...

drawboy said:
In my view you or your partner must have seen it enter the hazard, assuming it went in there as you cannot find it isn't good enough. I may be wrong but that is what I thought the rule was.
Click to expand...

You've both, pretty much summed up the conversation we had looking for the ball.

Ian's opinion was my dads. DB has my opinion.

Just thought I'd throw it out to the forum for a little clarification :thup:
 
Virtually certain is similar to the legal beyond reasonable doubt. If there is any reasonable possibility that it is not in the hazard, then it is not virtually certain to be there and is a lost ball. In practice, this means that if it headed for an area where there was a hazard but also rough or bushes, it can't really be virtually certain.

In this case, based on the description given, I think it would be very difficult to say that the ball was virtually certain to be in the hazard. Good chance it is in, sure.
 
Hi Gareth
It's hard to tell from your picture but you have the right advice above about how to determine virtual certainty. The words really do mean what they say. Certainty is an absolute, ie you know for a fact your ball is in the hazard. Virtual qualifies that absolute certainty just a very little and allows you to reason from the evidence you have that there is no possibility of the ball's being anywhere other than in the hazard. It's tough proof you need, as Ethan neatly explained.

Drawboy mentions having to see a ball enter a hazard, but there are circumstances in which you can have virtual certainty even though you did not see your ball enter a hazard. For example where a burn crosses a fairway but is out of sight when you play because of a ridge. You hit a straight shot over the ridge and cannot find your ball. There is a gentle slope down to the burn and the grass is closely mown on both sides of the hazard with no long grass or anything that could be hiding your ball. You could reason that because there is nowhere else your ball could be than in the burn, you have virtual certainty that's where it is.

Decision 26-1/1 is well worth a read for an explanation of this

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-26/#26-1/1
 
Tough one, IMO where there can be any doubt of the ball entering the hazard the you cannot assume its there. We have a pond on the left side of a fairway which cannot be seen from the tee, a mega pet hate of mine is people assuming they cannot find their ball therefore it has to be there despite the fact there is rough and trees/bushes beside the pond.
 
This is covered in Decision 26-1/1 - Meaning of "Known or Virtually Certain", which in relation to the notion of virtual certainty, says:

"In the absence of “knowledge” that the ball is in the water hazard, Rule 26-1 requires there to be “virtual certainty” that the player’s ball is in the water hazard in order to proceed under this Rule. Unlike “knowledge,” “virtual certainty” implies some small degree of doubt about the actual location of a ball that has not been found. However, “virtual certainty” also means that, although the ball has not been found, when all readily available information is considered, the conclusion that there is nowhere that the ball could be except in the water hazard would be justified.

In determining whether “virtual certainty” exists, some of the relevant factors in the area of the water hazard to be considered include topography, turf conditions, grass heights, visibility, weather conditions and the proximity of trees, bushes and abnormal ground conditions."

Looking at thge picture there appears to be some long grass, bushes and undergrowth, by the red post. Can you be sure the ball isn't in there?

On the basis of the description and the photo I'm not persuaded that it is reasonable to conclude that there is no where else that the ball could be except in the hazard.

Obviously though if I was actually able to look around the area in question that might change.
 
Given your description and the picture posted I'd say there are places outside the hazard where you wouldn't see the ball. Especially given that you didn't see which way the ball went after striking the tree, I wouldn't say it was virtually certain the ball was in the hazard.

Just my opinion. I am very often wrong. ;)
 
Region3 said:
Given your description and the picture posted I'd say there are places outside the hazard where you wouldn't see the ball. Especially given that you didn't see which way the ball went after striking the tree, I wouldn't say it was virtually certain the ball was in the hazard.

Just my opinion. I am very often wrong. ;)
Click to expand...


Im with you gaz.
 
I ain't got a clue mate as I thought you have to identify it even if it IS in the hazard :mad:

Someone should just make a rule that if you can't find your ball you just have to go back and hit it again// end of.
 
JustOne said:
I ain't got a clue mate as I thought you have to identify it even if it IS in the hazard :mad:
Click to expand...

Tad difficult to do that JO if its in the middle of a 3foot deep pond, that's where virtually certain comes in if you see it heading that way.
 
JustOne said:
Someone should just make a rule that if you can't find your ball you just have to go back and hit it again// end of.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... just wondering, in reference to the OP, even if you were virtually certain the ball was in the hazard, if you couldn't estimate where it last crossed the margin of the hazard, you don't have a reference point for a drop under 26-1b or c leaving only the option under 26-1a to drop under stroke and distance in accordance with 27-1.

Would that be right?
 
Colin L said:
JustTwoThoughts, JustOne.


How do you identify a lost ball :confused:
Click to expand...

A lost ball and a ball lost in a hazard are 2 different things hence the virtually certain rule. Same penalty but replayed differently ie from original position for lost ball and at the hazard/DZ for being there.
 
Is 'virtual certainty' as seems to be being applied in this discussion relatively new to this rule.

I have always taken the line that the ball is deemed to be in the water hazard if you and playing partner - or indeed simply playing partner - have either 'seen the splash' or if it was clearly heading into the water and there was nothing to prevent it going in - otherwise it is not in the water. The latter bit of this is the limit of my virtual certainty. And if you can't find it, it is lost - tough. And this applies in the extreme scenario that the pond is in the middle of an area of cut grass and there are no trees, shrubs, bunkers - indeed anything, anywhere nearby

So in this scenario, as far as I am concerned the ball could have hit a tree and have been deflected to somewhere quite unexpected - and coming to rest in an unexpected place you wouldn't necessarily look for it there. Well that's golf. Adding in this 'virtual certainty' beyond what I have stated as VC does seem to me to introduce room for argument and disagreement when previously as far as I was concerned in or out of the water was to all intents an purposes a matter of fact.
 
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Colin L said:
For example where a burn crosses a fairway but is out of sight when you play because of a ridge. You hit a straight shot over the ridge and cannot find your ball. There is a gentle slope down to the burn and the grass is closely mown on both sides of the hazard with no long grass or anything that could be hiding your ball. You could reason that because there is nowhere else your ball could be than in the burn, you have virtual certainty that's where it is.
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-26/#26-1/1
Click to expand...

Now even in this example - if an opponent hit this shot and claimed his ball must be in the water I'd say no - sorry. May seem likely it is in the ditch/burn but tough. Am I wrong?
 
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