Unstable and Potentially Dangerous Exterior Garden Party Wall

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

There is a 10ft run of 6ft high walling running from the back of our house between us and our neighbours (it's a semi). The neighbours have a dilapidated lean-to off the back of their house built on top of this wall at one side.

We are having work done in the garden and were going to have a fencing panel fixed to this wall our side. However the fencer tells us that the wall is unstable - indeed could collapse if hit hard enough. If you bang it with your fist you can see it move.

We have discussed a solution that would see us putting in three fencing posts to support the paneling plus also provide buttressing to the wall - one post fixed to our house back wall and two dug into the ground our side immediately against the wall (middle and far end from the house). All three posts (or at least the middle and far end posts) would be pinned to the wall to further stabilise it.

But our elderly neighbours are pretty unhappy with us full stop about the work we have been doing in the garden (even although we have kept them fully informed), and we are concerned that were we to do what we have discussed with the fencer without discussion then if anything happened to the wall or their lean-to they'd be after us.

Besides - as it is a party wall if we are to do what we have discussed with the fencer we would most probably have to clear what we are doing our side of the wall. Is that the case?- as we do not intend building anything on top of the wall - just fixing the posts to the face as described above.

We could decide to just not bother with the hassle of it all and do something as a screen that doesn't involve the wall at all. But as we now know that the wall is unstable and dangerous - its big enough to kill someone - especially a child - if it fell - do we HAVE to tell them? Need we take legal advice?

Any thoughts from bar room lawyers here (or those with experience) would be much appreciated.

 

[drdel]

Any blame for a mishap would revolve on who has been negligent or, if it could be proved, who caused a failure in the structure. Party wall stories are notorious, I'd be tempted to try and have a discussion but failing that, write a letter with your misgivings: then failing any sensible results I'd get a solicitor to write a note. Insurers are picking over the small print nowadays so, if you think there's a real chance of a collapse and serious financial consequences I'd dot the i's and cross the t's as a 'professional' has made you aware of the risk - which can't now be forgotten and ignored.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Any blame for a mishap would revolve on who has been negligent or, if it could be proved, who caused a failure in the structure. Party wall stories are notorious, I'd be tempted to try and have a discussion but failing that, write a letter with your misgivings: then failing any sensible results I'd get a solicitor to write a note. Insurers are picking over the small print nowadays so, if you think there's a real chance of a collapse and serious financial consequences I'd dot the i's and cross the t's as a 'professional' has made you aware of the risk - which can't now be forgotten and ignored.

Thanks for that Sir! The drafting a letter to them seems right - maybe also try and have the discussion. If the wall collapsed our side it would hit our conservatory - OK - not great but not disastrous. But the fact that we knew of the risk I suspect that means our insurers would look at any claim very carefully...

Collapses into their side would bring down their little lean-to which they use as a utility space and is their exit to the garden. As it happens I believe they have their washing machine up against the party wall - so if I was so minded I might suggest that the instability may be down to many years of a vibrating washing machine against the wall?

Biggest worry is if it collapsed onto someone...either of it's own volition or if someone did such as trip and fall against it.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

As it happens I believe they have their washing machine up against the party wall - so if I was so minded I might suggest that the instability may be down to many years of a vibrating washing machine against the wall?

HIghly unlikely, the vibrations if any go down, not out the back.
Whos wall is it? Your deed should tell you which wall is your responsibility. If its theirs, one option if they dont want to do anything about it is to sink your fence posts on your side of the boundary so no contact is made with their wall

 

[Jacko_G]

3 am.

Out the back with a sledge hammer. Couple of whacks and run straight back into bed. Wake up in the morning and play dumb. Sounds like it must be replaced regardless.

 

[jim8flog]

Have you assumed it is a party wall or is it shown as such on the house plans ( unusual for a garden wall). Most modern houses the ownership of fences wall etc is very commonly to your left as viewed towards the garden from the house. If the wall is owned by your neighbour you have no right to attach anything to it. If owned by you, you can demand they remove any structure from it.

My understanding is that if it is a party wall you have to get a 'party wall agreement' with all owners before you can do any sort of work on it including affixing any sort of structure to it.

If the wall is in a dangerous condition I would advise sending a letter to your neighbours advising them of such and insist that the wall gets some sort of structural repair undertaken.

 

[clubchamp98]

The last thing you should do is digging holes to sink fence posts .
You could undermine the footings and cause a collapse , fence posts will not contain a brick wall.
I am surprised the fencer is agreeing to work near it .
If it’s as bad as you describe it needs to come down .

If it’s covered by a party wall agreement get your request in with the other party to repair/demolish it to cover yourself if the worst happens.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I would agree with Jim.
Very unusual to have a party wall, check out who owns it.
If there are supporting pillars on your side, it is yours.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I would agree with Jim.
Very unusual to have a party wall, check out who owns it.
If there are supporting pillars on your side, it is yours.

As I face the back off our house the wall is on my right hand side, and clearly on their LHS as they face the back of theirs. We put a new fence up between us on the grounds that we were owners of the existing fence and responsible for the boundary. Did not appreciate the same would apply to this exterior wall - they have made 'party wall' noises in the past when we planned to knock it down and build new.

BTW - the fencer was not particularly happy about doing anything - he just suggested what we could do - in consultation with the neighbours.

 

[backwoodsman]

Best thing is to contact the Building Control service at your local council to see if it would count as a "dangerous structure". Forget (for now) that you think it may be a party wall - just tell them that you think it's your neighbour's and you believe it to be a danger to you & your property (ie it wobbles when you push it). If they have power to act they will, and if they don't, they will at least be able to abvise.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Best thing is to contact the Building Control service at your local council to see if it would count as a "dangerous structure". Forget (for now) that you think it may be a party wall - just tell them that you think it's your neighbour's and you believe it to be a danger to you & your property (ie it wobbles when you push it). If they have power to act they will, and if they don't, they will at least be able to abvise.

As the wall is on my RHS as I look at the back of our house does that not mean that the wall is mine?

 

[clubchamp98]

As the wall is on my RHS as I look at the back of our house does that not mean that the wall is mine?

No I always thought it was your left side that was your responsibility
Ask the council for clarification.
If you don’t have deeds it may be on their records , but a garden wall may not show up as by your description it has not been built to regulations.

 

[williamalex1]

Why bother if you still intend moving back to Scotland ?

 

[Leftie]

As the wall is on my RHS as I look at the back of our house does that not mean that the wall is mine?

Not necessarily. For instance, it's the other way round for me.

Usually, if the centre line of the wall is on the centre line between the two properties, then it's a party wall and probably (but not again necessarily) the responsibility of both parties. If it's not on the centre line, that should give you a clue as to who's responsibility it is.

But hey. What do I know - I'm not a solicitor or a party wall surveyor ........

 

[ADB]

No I always thought it was your left side that was your responsibility
Ask the council for clarification.
If you don’t have deeds it may be on their records , but a garden wall may not show up as by your description it has not been built to regulations.

There is some confusion about whether you are inside looking out, or outside looking in for left and right.

My understanding was that a wall/fence on your left as you look out from the inside of house was your responsibility.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

There is some confusion about whether you are inside looking out, or outside looking in for left and right.

My understanding was that a wall/fence on your left as you look out from the inside of house was your responsibility.

There is a good deal of urban myth about this. Your deeds tell everything. If they don't then the boundary is generally shared (I think)

 

[Slab]

Can't help with the query but i'm intrigued why your neighbours are unhappy with your garden work?

Is it just a noise/disruption thing or are you erecting a mini version of the shard?
(BTW if its noise etc, just because someone has been informed doesn't mean they'll be happy about it)

 

[Doon frae Troon]

As I face the back off our house the wall is on my right hand side, and clearly on their LHS as they face the back of theirs. We put a new fence up between us on the grounds that we were owners of the existing fence and responsible for the boundary. Did not appreciate the same would apply to this exterior wall - they have made 'party wall' noises in the past when we planned to knock it down and build new.

BTW - the fencer was not particularly happy about doing anything - he just suggested what we could do - in consultation with the neighbours.

Nothing to stop you putting a fence up on your own land [provided it meets any planning regs….. which there is unlikely to be].

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Can't help with the query but i'm intrigued why your neighbours are unhappy with your garden work?

Is it just a noise/disruption thing or are you erecting a mini version of the shard?
(BTW if its noise etc, just because someone has been informed doesn't mean they'll be happy about it)

On the noise front - they complained about our kids squealing and laughing on sunny afternoons when we had a trampoilne in the garden; about my daughter playing music outside on her 18th birthday; about my son and his mates... etc etc...

They complained when we took down an 8ft Leylandii hedge that ran our side of the boundary; then complained when we put up a 6ft fence and grew stuff up it as screening; then complained when that fence fell apart and we have just put up a 6'6" lovely new fence to replace it (and we talked them through what we were going to do); and complained about shrubs growing our side overhanging their side; and objected to plans we had to build a lovely single storey extension out the back to replace old knackered stuff that was there...and that would have included knocking down and replacing this dangerous wall...(though we didn't know it was such at that time).

We have tried to accommodate their views as far as possible at all times - even at the expensive of our own wishes. So when they said they were going to object to the extension we had planned we decided it wasn't worth the hassle going ahead with it and had a conservatory (that wasn't our preference but that didn't go near the boundary) put up instead.

Over 22yrs living next door to them they have complained continuously - indeed they have said to my wife that the stress we have caused them contributed to her having a heart attack (she's still going...). Before us there was a little old lady who would have been quiet as a dormouse. They think and act as if they are living in a detached house.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Nothing to stop you putting a fence up on your own land [provided it meets any planning regs….. which there is unlikely to be].

Which we have just done - to maximum height planning allow - 6'6" - replacing an existing 6' one that was completely knackered. And even on that they complained that we were taking out a couple of concrete fence posts when clearing the fence - and we had paid for the blasted posts.

But as I was a bit ambiguous. Looking out from the back of the house down the garden - the boundary is on the LHS.