TRUMP, What the hell is going on

[Wolf]

Military, security and defence is not the Olympic games: the 'media' has no right to know despite their self righteous belief and the 'public' do not need to know!

This is serious stuff and it IS taken very seriously by senior, intelligent military staff: the USA, UK and other allied embedded staff at the Pentagon, Washington etc will have examined the situation and potential scenarios. It is silly and just not possible or wise to publish sensitive information most probably derived from covert intelligence reports or 'insiders'; it puts those sources in grave danger, jeopardises future info and informs the opposition how you know what you know.

Do you think other nations feel compelled to tell the world and justify actions just to fulfill a mistaken media/public 'right'. Does China, N Korea, Israel, Iraq or Iran etc publishes information about its past, present military and defence action?

You're right Military action is not the Olympic games, servicemen & women lose their lives based on the decisions of people in suits working in safe warm environments. Those decision makers have a responsibility to their nations people to justify the reasons they openly launch an attack in a foreign nation, because the come backs on those peoole are such they could face attack, they could be the ones in future fighting the subsequent conflicts putting their lives on the line.

Nobody needs to know the finite details of the military intelligence gathered, but they do need a just cause reason to support their leaders and understand what consequences they may face. Likewise the leaders have a legal responsibility to the UN to justify the actions otherwise it can be interpreted as an act of war.

If they wanted this done covertly there are many options available that wouldn't cause this open questioning that have to be answered.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

The UK military etc. has advocated his demise since around 2008 - Millibrand would not agree.

What is overlooked is that although distasteful in the extreme, he did work with the US in the fight against ISIS, in that both parties agreed to ignore certain things in the "joint action".
I don't know the why's or wherefores, but America turning on some unpleasant person it previously chose to work with isn't new.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

All very valid but why not, if the guy was that bad, arrange a car 'accident.' Why publically attack a recognised sovereign state - its an act of war. Yes, like N Korea et al, not a nice regime but still seen by the UN and many of its neighbours as a country in its own right?

Drone strike on a Talibhan warlord or ISIS I can understand but, as dispicable as the guy and the regime was/are, it just doesn't sit well to do it so publically.

And indeed - as Richard Haass comments - the US knows that Kim Jong-un and President Assad are murderous thugs that also pose a threat to US security - but the US haven't taken either of them out. Why this guy, in this manner, and now.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What is overlooked is that although distasteful in the extreme, he did work with the US in the fight against ISIS, in that both parties agreed to ignore certain things in the "joint action".
I don't know the why's or wherefores, but America turning on some unpleasant person it previously chose to work with isn't new.

or abandoning them - see the Syrian Kurds...

 

[Hobbit]

And indeed - as Richard Haass comments - the US knows that Kim Jong-un and President Assad are murderous thugs that also pose a threat to US security - but the US haven't taken either of them out. Why this guy, in this manner, and now.

Jong-Un is backed/allied by China, and Assad is backed/allied to Russia. Attacking either would see a massive war, and with a greater potential to go global.

 

[williamalex1]

All very valid but why not, if the guy was that bad, arrange a car 'accident.' Why publically attack a recognised sovereign state - its an act of war. Yes, like N Korea et al, not a nice regime but still seen by the UN and many of its neighbours as a country in its own right?

Drone strike on a Talibhan warlord or ISIS I can understand but, as dispicable as the guy and the regime was/are, it just doesn't sit well to do it so publically.

Arrange a car accident like the one that involved a couple of unknown spies and some deadly poison, then you can deny you had anything to do with it.

 

[Foxholer]

...Why this guy, in this manner, and now.

Impeachment and re-election. Pure and simple!

 

[gmc40]

Impeachment and re-election. Pure and simple!

Exactly, nothing more and nothing less

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Impeachment and re-election. Pure and simple!

...and to bolster his popularity amongst his core constituency he threatens to destroy Iranian Cultural sites on the UNESCO World Heritage list and so protected under the Geneva Convention - and that would potentially make him a war criminal? - wouldn't he just love that - unfortunately I think he would because he would.

"They’re allowed to kill our people. They’re allowed to torture and maim our people. They’re allowed to use roadside bombs and blow up our people. And we’re not allowed to touch their cultural site? It doesn’t work that way."

 

[drdel]

...and to bolster his popularity amongst his core constituency he threatens to destroy Iranian Cultural sites on the UNESCO World Heritage list and so protected under the Geneva Convention - and that would potentially make him a war criminal? - wouldn't he just love that - unfortunately I think he would because he would.

"They’re allowed to kill our people. They’re allowed to torture and maim our people. They’re allowed to use roadside bombs and blow up our people. And we’re not allowed to touch their cultural site? It doesn’t work that way."

The asymmetric way in which terrorists operate does mean conventional rules don't apply - they chose to operate outside the Geneva 'rules' as they see fit. Iran has deliberately built defensive positions under or in very close proximity to so-called cultural sites which numbers many hundreds of no real cultural/religious significance. This is exactly the same as other maltia operatives conducting incursion from with residential areas.

The west has lost many, many lives to Iran and it's proxy operators violating national borders. Those who expect some sort of James Bond operation ignore the danger to Western military/contractors. The surgical targeting of high ranking commanders by accurate systems is far superior to silly ideas of car accidents and similar 'movie' idiocy that cannot be acted quickly, endanger other lives and have uncertain outcomes.

The notion that everything the USA/UK/NATO does is bad is as foolish as claiming Johnson/Tories are stupid.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

The asymmetric way in which terrorists operate does mean conventional rules don't apply - they chose to operate outside the Geneva 'rules' as they see fit. Iran has deliberately built defensive positions under or in very close proximity to so-called cultural sites which numbers many hundreds of no real cultural/religious significance. This is exactly the same as other maltia operatives conducting incursion from with residential areas.

The west has lost many, many lives to Iran and it's proxy operators violating national borders. Those who expect some sort of James Bond operation ignore the danger to Western military/contractors. The surgical targeting of high ranking commanders by accurate systems is far superior to silly ideas of car accidents and similar 'movie' idiocy that cannot be acted quickly, endanger other lives and have uncertain outcomes.

The notion that everything the USA/UK/NATO does is bad is as foolish as claiming Johnson/Tories are stupid.

Just because my dog used to crap on the pavement (then I bagged it) doesn't mean that I must crap there as well.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Just because my dog used to crap on the pavement (then I bagged it) doesn't mean that I must crap there as well.

Indeed - I thought it was such as the Taliban and ISIS who were so barbaric and ideological that destruction of Cultural Sites simply went with the territory and that the 'civilised' world didn't do that sort of thing. Just didn't - no matter what.

 

[Wolf]

The asymmetric way in which terrorists operate does mean conventional rules don't apply - they chose to operate outside the Geneva 'rules' as they see fit. Iran has deliberately built defensive positions under or in very close proximity to so-called cultural sites which numbers many hundreds of no real cultural/religious significance. This is exactly the same as other maltia operatives conducting incursion from with residential areas.

The west has lost many, many lives to Iran and it's proxy operators violating national borders. Those who expect some sort of James Bond operation ignore the danger to Western military/contractors. The surgical targeting of high ranking commanders by accurate systems is far superior to silly ideas of car accidents and similar 'movie' idiocy that cannot be acted quickly, endanger other lives and have uncertain outcomes.

The notion that everything the USA/UK/NATO does is bad is as foolish as claiming Johnson/Tories are stupid.

I maybe wrong but Im sorry but that just reads like someone thats only ever seen these atrocious actions through a newspaper and sitting at home watching the news. Perhaps im wrong with that assessment.

The "rules" of the Geneva convention & JSA always apply regardless of what other nations do. Because if they don't then we become the terrorist and our actions must be tried and dealt with accordingly by the courts.

Yes lives have been lost but that does not mean anyone can go above the law. Nobody is saying they should have gone James Bond style but there are still a whole host of ways this kind of action can be done covertly and in a deniable manner.

 

[Hobbit]

The asymmetric way in which terrorists operate does mean conventional rules don't apply - they chose to operate outside the Geneva 'rules' as they see fit. Iran has deliberately built defensive positions under or in very close proximity to so-called cultural sites which numbers many hundreds of no real cultural/religious significance. This is exactly the same as other maltia operatives conducting incursion from with residential areas.

The west has lost many, many lives to Iran and it's proxy operators violating national borders. Those who expect some sort of James Bond operation ignore the danger to Western military/contractors. The surgical targeting of high ranking commanders by accurate systems is far superior to silly ideas of car accidents and similar 'movie' idiocy that cannot be acted quickly, endanger other lives and have uncertain outcomes.

The notion that everything the USA/UK/NATO does is bad is as foolish as claiming Johnson/Tories are stupid.

Wow! As well as a superb economist, an intelligence analyst/operative. I think you've taken some comments too literally. The US funds, and has funded, a number of indigenous groups in various countries in the fight against terror and drugs. Not James Bond-esqe or silly movie plots but honest to goodness boots on the ground supported by 'advisors' from the US.... but you knew that didn't you.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-51029181

well let’s hope it’s not the start of things getting worse ?

And let’s pray that the airline jet thats has gone down has nothing to do with it all

 

[Deleted member 23270]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-51029181

well let’s hope it’s not the start of things getting worse ?

And let’s pray that the airline jet thats has gone down has nothing to do with it all

Things will certainly get worse before they get better but there is nothing to suggest at this stage that the plane crash is linked. Reports are saying it was engine failure.

 

[Foxholer]

Things will certainly get worse before they get better but there is nothing to suggest at this stage that the plane crash is linked. Reports are saying it was engine failure.

Yep! That can happen when an engine is hit by a missile!

But almost certainly a coincidence. As is the fact that the plane was from another of Trump's 'trouble spots'.

 

[Deleted member 23270]

Yep! That can happen when an engine is hit by a missile!

But almost certainly a coincidence. As is the fact that the plane was from another of Trump's 'trouble spots'.

OK if you say so but seeing as there were 82 Iranians on the plane I'm happy to believe it was an accident at this stage until there is evidence to suggest otherwise.

 

[drdel]

I maybe wrong but Im sorry but that just reads (1a) like someone thats only ever seen these atrocious actions through a newspaper and sitting at home watching the news. (1b)Perhaps im wrong with that assessment.

The "rules" of the (2) Geneva convention & JSA always apply regardless of what other nations do. Because if they don't then we become the terrorist and our actions must be tried and dealt with accordingly by the courts.

Yes lives have been lost but that does not mean anyone can go above the law.(3) Nobody is saying they should have gone James Bond style but there are still a whole host of ways this kind of action can be done covertly and in a deniable manner.

I must respond but without details - sorry to other posters.
Do I assume by your first comment you are claiming operation military experience/superiority?
1. You are indeed very, very wrong on a level way above your pay-grade I'd bet - if you want to be better informed strategically I'd suggest public commentary by RUSI, Janes, and SMI type conferences etc might be a good non-sensitive start.
2. The USA, UK and NATO will always closely follow and go to great lengths to follow 'Geneva' and I never suggested otherwise I merely pointed out that the asymmetric nature faced provides an advantage to the aggressor who does not feel the need to conform the same 'rules of engagement'.
3. Wrong a few posts early it was suggested a car accident could be arranged and covert operations would give the deniable opportunity you desire. Deniability was clearly not the objective and was the safest and most effective action that avoided risk to service personnel and potentially inhumane outcome.

Hobbit, said
"Wow! As well as a (1) superb economist, an intelligence (2) analyst/operative. I think you've taken some comments too literally. The US funds, and has funded, a number of indigenous groups in various countries in the fight against terror and drugs. Not James Bond-esqe or silly movie plots but honest to (3a) goodness boots on the ground supported by 'advisors' from the US.... (3b) but you knew that didn't you. "

1 Thanks for the insult, I thought we played the ball not the person - expertise recognised internationally.
2. Yep 4 decades of simulation and modelling building originating with military equipment with years as HoD of relevant organisation.
3. (a) Technology and power projection capability avoids foolish endangerment of other lives when indiscriminate use of mines, RPG's in civilian vehicles are the chosen opposition.
3. (b) As per my reply to Wolf in 1 above!

OK. so as I always state I have just given my opinions and now added a rebuttal which may be unpopular/arrogant; so be it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm looking forward to seeing Trump's Cunning Plan come to fruition.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, US Court removes the blocker that John Bolton was holding up as preventing him from testifying in the Impeachment process - and also that which Mulvaney and Pompeo were hiding behind. So if Bolton is subpoenaed to testify he has said he will. Now that would be interesting. What can Trump do to divert attention from that?