Time allowed looking for provisional after 3mins looking for 1st ball

[Swango1980]

In a way, yes, though ovbviously would need a precise wording in itself. But its maybe something that should be considered to match the rules officially to how the vast majority actually play the game. And make the rules simpler and less offputting to people thinking you need a degree in the rules and decisions, to make golf more approachable.

And just imagine how off-putting it would be when every group was just doing what they think best. There would be no real incentive to learn any rule, and you could just plead ignorance and continue according to your own common sense.

Hit a ball just OB, what if nobody in group knows what that means, and they say "well, you or only just past that white post, but you have a swing so just play on from there". What if they don't know how to proceed when ball is unplayable? Instead of taking 2 club lengths, which would still keep them in bush, they just take a drop out on fairway with a penalty. After all, seems reasonable to them.

Very very messy indeed

 

[IanM]

In practice at club level "time allowed" is whatever the player can get away with!

If someone says "that's 3 minutes " it all kicks off.

I played with someone recently, who didn't know it'd dropped to 3 minutes.

 

[rulie]

Three minutes goes by very quickly, particularly as viewed (timed?) by the players behind you!

 

[Backsticks]

We have the following...unwritten of course...local rules :

Unwritten Local Rule 1.
In a case where there is uncertainty over the correct procedure according to the rules amongst a group of players, the player will make their best effort to guess the correct and equitable rule. It is not necessary to debate, consult the rules, or a referee, or other action that would delay play. Unless a playing partner is virtually certain that the rules are being incorrectly applied, the player may proceed as they best judge, and no penalty or score revision may be made, even if the action taken is subsequently found to have been not according to the rules.


Unwritten Local Rule 2.
No penalty shall be applied for breach of rules that are by common concensus of the group are unnecessarily pernickety and there is virtually certainty that other than with the application of penalty shots, would have no material effect on ones score. For example, not replacing a moved marker on the green before putting out, marking ones own card, discovering more than 14 clubs is ones bag as long as no more than 14 have actually been used, etc.

 

[Swango1980]

We have the following...unwritten of course...local rules :

Unwritten Local Rule 1.
In a case where there is uncertainty over the correct procedure according to the rules amongst a group of players, the player will make their best effort to guess the correct and equitable rule. It is not necessary to debate, consult the rules, or a referee, or other action that would delay play. Unless a playing partner is virtually certain that the rules are being incorrectly applied, the player may proceed as they best judge, and no penalty or score revision may be made, even if the action taken is subsequently found to have been not according to the rules.


Unwritten Local Rule 2.
No penalty shall be applied for breach of rules that are by common concensus of the group are unnecessarily pernickety and there is virtually certainty that other than with the application of penalty shots, would have no material effect on ones score. For example, not replacing a moved marker on the green before putting out, marking ones own card, discovering more than 14 clubs is ones bag as long as no more than 14 have actually been used, etc.

I guess it is quite comforting when you can try and legitimise cheating . Though, if it is in a social round, you are all welcome to proceed as you wish as long as you are all happy.

 

[D-S]

We have the following...unwritten of course...local rules :

Unwritten Local Rule 1.
In a case where there is uncertainty over the correct procedure according to the rules amongst a group of players, the player will make their best effort to guess the correct and equitable rule. It is not necessary to debate, consult the rules, or a referee, or other action that would delay play. Unless a playing partner is virtually certain that the rules are being incorrectly applied, the player may proceed as they best judge, and no penalty or score revision may be made, even if the action taken is subsequently found to have been not according to the rules.


Unwritten Local Rule 2.
No penalty shall be applied for breach of rules that are by common concensus of the group are unnecessarily pernickety and there is virtually certainty that other than with the application of penalty shots, would have no material effect on ones score. For example, not replacing a moved marker on the green before putting out, marking ones own card, discovering more than 14 clubs is ones bag as long as no more than 14 have actually been used, etc.

Sounds like the perfect solution for that section of golfers who deliberately don’t learn the rules, so that they can claim ignorance when they don’t penalise themselves for common breaches and always give themselves a preferential drop or decision as the rules are ‘complicated’ (even the basic most obvious ones) - you could call it trying to legitimise cheating.

 

[Steven Rules]

We have the following...unwritten of course...local rules :

Unwritten Local Rule 1.
In a case where there is uncertainty over the correct procedure according to the rules amongst a group of players, the player will make their best effort to guess the correct and equitable rule. It is not necessary to debate, consult the rules, or a referee, or other action that would delay play. Unless a playing partner is virtually certain that the rules are being incorrectly applied, the player may proceed as they best judge, and no penalty or score revision may be made, even if the action taken is subsequently found to have been not according to the rules.


Unwritten Local Rule 2.
No penalty shall be applied for breach of rules that are by common concensus of the group are unnecessarily pernickety and there is virtually certainty that other than with the application of penalty shots, would have no material effect on ones score. For example, not replacing a moved marker on the green before putting out, marking ones own card, discovering more than 14 clubs is ones bag as long as no more than 14 have actually been used, etc.

Well I am now officially gobsmacked. (as well as astonished)

In a recent separate thread you were stridently railing against people who you perceived made up their own local rules (in a hypothetical scenario), and now here you are....

Can you practice in an adjacent bunker to your ball ?

And if Ian is playing with someone likeminded who also regards practicing a shot in an adjacent bunker as something one should not do - are the colluding to a change in the rules of golf ? And thus both disqualified ? Are you saying that by agreeing to not using a rule that permits but does...

forums.golfmonthly.com

 

[clubchamp98]

We have the following...unwritten of course...local rules :

Unwritten Local Rule 1.
In a case where there is uncertainty over the correct procedure according to the rules amongst a group of players, the player will make their best effort to guess the correct and equitable rule. It is not necessary to debate, consult the rules, or a referee, or other action that would delay play. Unless a playing partner is virtually certain that the rules are being incorrectly applied, the player may proceed as they best judge, and no penalty or score revision may be made, even if the action taken is subsequently found to have been not according to the rules.


Unwritten Local Rule 2.
No penalty shall be applied for breach of rules that are by common concensus of the group are unnecessarily pernickety and there is virtually certainty that other than with the application of penalty shots, would have no material effect on ones score. For example, not replacing a moved marker on the green before putting out, marking ones own card, discovering more than 14 clubs is ones bag as long as no more than 14 have actually been used, etc.

Is this in the comps?

Between yourselves is fine .
But if someone using these “alternative “rules wins the comp, the person who comes second using the proper rules isn’t going to be happy.!

 

[Colin L]

We have the following...unwritten of course...local rules......

Who are we ? If you mean three or four folk on their regular hack around their golf course for a laugh and a few beers afterwards, then fine although I don't see the point of it. I'd be curious, however, as to whether anyone after their few beers makes up their own rules and drives home.

If, on the other hand, you mean this sort of nonsense goes on in club competitions, there's nothing to be said. It's too absurd to contemplate since it would mean no competition as everyone should be disqualified on the 1st tee and not a single score would be acceptable for handicapping. By the way, the Rules make provision for occasions when we don't know the Rules or how to apply them in both stroke play and match play. Here's your reading homework:
Rule 1.3b(1) second bullet point.
Rule 20.1 (all of it!)

 

[Swango1980]

Who are we ? If you mean three or four folk on their regular hack around their golf course for a laugh and a few beers afterwards, then fine although I don't see the point of it. I'd be curious, however, as to whether anyone after their few beers makes up their own rules and drives home.

If, on the other hand, you mean this sort of nonsense goes on in club competitions, there's nothing to be said. It's too absurd to contemplate since it would mean no competition as everyone should be disqualified on the 1st tee and not a single score would be acceptable for handicapping. By the way, the Rules make provision for occasions when we don't know the Rules or how to apply them in both stroke play and match play. Here's your reading homework:
Rule 1.3b(1) second bullet point.
Rule 20.1 (all of it!)

If I don't know what the actual legal limit is, or how many pints it takes to get me there, can I just use my common sense and and drive home after 7 pints, if I feel alert enough? I think some people will quite enjoy it if Backsticks was responsible for allowing these types of unwritten local rules to be applied outside of golf, so long as we are all willing to turn a blind eye when carnage occurs

 

[Backsticks]

Appreciate this is a rules forum, where many are probably more, and even significantly more informed on the rules than the average golfer. Even then it can take pages to agree or get to the bottom of some cases.

But I think you are kidding yourselves or heads in the sand, if you really think those 'local rules' are not how golf, and yes, competition golf, is played in the real world.
Agree, yes, there is a moral hazard issue, and it is comforting to some to hold at least the illusion of a hard line. But the truth is that what I wrote is custom and practice everywhere.

One could add the original question on this thread, and search time. Rulesies will consider the added scenario of a provisional. But 99% of golfers do not even time their first ball. Time searching is governed by : how important it is to the player to find it, the probability of finding it (we should see it here surely v. waist high grass, we will never find it), how close the group behind is and pressing to play through, and, a general only, feeling for passing time. This is how we all play. I have never in my life heard someone on a clock call, 10 seconds left!....sorry, time up.

 

[Swango1980]

Appreciate this is a rules forum, where many are probably more, and even significantly more informed on the rules than the average golfer. Even then it can take pages to agree or get to the bottom of some cases.

But I think you are kidding yourselves or heads in the sand, if you really think those 'local rules' are not how golf, and yes, competition golf, is played in the real world.
Agree, yes, there is a moral hazard issue, and it is comforting to some to hold at least the illusion of a hard line. But the truth is that what I wrote is custom and practice everywhere.

One could add the original question on this thread, and search time. Rulesies will consider the added scenario of a provisional. But 99% of golfers do not even time their first ball. Time searching is governed by : how important it is to the player to find it, the probability of finding it (we should see it here surely v. waist high grass, we will never find it), how close the group behind is and pressing to play through, and, a general only, feeling for passing time. This is how we all play. I have never in my life heard someone on a clock call, 10 seconds left!....sorry, time up.

Firstly, nobody is suggesting that every golfer in every field applies the rules to perfection, and there is no doubt there will be infringements of rules that will never be heard of. However, I'd like to think that we all (including people not on this forum) have the belief that 99% of golfers have the integrity to at least get to grips with the most basic / common rules, and if they are unaware of something, to find out. To ask questions in the bar after, etc.

We'd like to think that there are no golfers in the field that apply the logic "we'll just do as we please if we don't know", although suspicion of a limited number of players might sometimes be the case at clubs that allow players to pick their groups and play with their mates every week. At clubs where you play with different people, if you don't know a rule you will soon find out at some point when you play with someone who does.

When I search for my ball, I do time myself, it is easy enough for me as I have my Garmin on anyway for Strava. And, if looking for someone else's, I will gently say "looks like the 3 mins is up, before stopping the my search and walking to my own ball". Question is, what do you do? Will you stop looking for your ball after 3 minutes, or will you pull someone up on the fact their 3 minutes is clearly up?

 

[Neilds]

What I really love on this forum is the amount of people who admit to damaging cars in car parks, speeding, using illegal download methods to watch TV, etc and not many people bat an eyelid - but mention you might turn a blind eye to someone to accidentally moving a golf ball and you get hung, drawn and quartered!

 

[Swango1980]

What I really love on this forum is the amount of people who admit to damaging cars in car parks, speeding, using illegal download methods to watch TV, etc and not many people bat an eyelid - but mention you might turn a blind eye to someone to accidentally moving a golf ball and you get hung, drawn and quartered!

Who's been damaging cars ?

If we were on a "Safe Driving" forum or a "Piracy" forum, I'm sure there would be quite a lot of people that do more than bat an eyelid of the things you suggested.

You are in a Rules of Golf forum, so you'd expect a response when somebody suggests that they should be changed to allow people to do what they want if they are unsure what to do. With such a rule, what would be the point in having any rules at all? Just get rid of them, and allow everyone to play as they see fit?

 

[rulefan]

What I really love on this forum is the amount of people who admit to damaging cars in car parks, speeding, using illegal download methods to watch TV, etc and not many people bat an eyelid - but mention you might turn a blind eye to someone to accidentally moving a golf ball and you get hung, drawn and quartered!

Just why do you frequent this forum? Is it to learn or to simply say there needn't or shouldn't be any rules?

 

[Neilds]

Just why do you frequent this forum? Is it to learn or to simply say there needn't or shouldn't be any rules?

I do find this part of the forum very useful but, as with a lot of the rules questions, the question was answered perfectly correctly by LincolnShep in post #3 and still people want to keep the thread going by posting things which either have nothing to do with the original question or just seem to complicate the matter so what should have been a simple yes or no answer is a multi page epic which no-one understands.

 

[Backsticks]

We'd like to think that there are no golfers in the field that apply the logic "we'll just do as we please if we don't know",

Its not quite that. People dont do as they please as such, nor act without integrity. What they do is make their reasonable best guess when they dont know.
It is the norm. Whether golf and its rules would be better off recognising that this is how people play, outside the very elite where refs are on call, or whether it is better to hold the hard line as written, even knowing it is widely breached, I am not sure.

Playing the game 30 years, and for sure know the rules better than 90%, but on the spot without looking it up, is it a breach to mark your own card ? Widely done, where rather than swapping around, some fourball give all the cards to one person and he fills them all in. And quite possibly not after every hole either. Is there any benefit in trying to correct or penalise that ? It works fine. But is it a breach. It doesnt affect anyones score in the slightest.

 

[Swango1980]

Its not quite that. People dont do as they please as such, nor act without integrity. What they do is make their reasonable best guess when they dont know.
It is the norm. Whether golf and its rules would be better off recognising that this is how people play, outside the very elite where refs are on call, or whether it is better to hold the hard line as written, even knowing it is widely breached, I am not sure.

Playing the game 30 years, and for sure know the rules better than 90%, but on the spot without looking it up, is it a breach to mark your own card ? Widely done, where rather than swapping around, some fourball give all the cards to one person and he fills them all in. And quite possibly not after every hole either. Is there any benefit in trying to correct or penalise that ? It works fine. But is it a breach. It doesnt affect anyones score in the slightest.

In regards to your last bit, in almost 20 years of playing competitive golf, at multiple golf clubs, I have never seen this happen. Without exception, players in a group HAVE always swapped cards. Usually before teeing off, at worst on the second tee. The only time I've known one person to mark all the scores is in a social game, which is fine.

But, it is completely nonsense to have a set of rules, that then includes "and if you don't know a rule, just do what you think is best and we'll accept that".

Imagine a player who, on a very good score, hits their approach on the par 3 18th out of bounds. Plays three of the tee and hits that out of bounds again. Plays 5 off the tee onto the green, 2 putts for a 7 and a nett 69. Clubhouse leader. Then another chap gets onto the 18th, smacks it OB. Doesn't know what the rule is, so when he gets to ball he feels it would be fair to drop a ball in bounds, take a one shot penalty and proceeds. Chips 3 onto the green and sinks the putt for a 4. He gets a nett 68. He wins the competition, and no problem at all about what he did on the 18th because he was just applying his own common sense...

 

[Swango1980]

I do find this part of the forum very useful but, as with a lot of the rules questions, the question was answered perfectly correctly by LincolnShep in post #3 and still people want to keep the thread going by posting things which either have nothing to do with the original question or just seem to complicate the matter so what should have been a simple yes or no answer is a multi page epic which no-one understands.

And yet you have added 5 additional posts to this thread (2 of yours and 3 responses)

 

[DickInShorts]

It all depends on whether you want to play Golf - a sport covered by a set of rules - or hit a golf ball around a golf course.

The two are quite likely to produce different results ( scorewise) !