Three Off The Tee?

[Crazyface]

A mate posed this quesion to me the other day. Why are we three off the tee? Surely taking a second shot is enough? You are then playing three where is lands which usually is where you should have been if you hadn't sliced / hooked the thing OOB. If you had put the ball in a hazard then you would be playing three from there, so why is there further punishment for putting the ball OOB?
I have given this some thought and have to agree. Maybe a think about this rule could be in order, seeing as the R+A seem to be wanting to make changes at the moment.

 

[Slab]

I’d support a change so that distance is the only penalty rather than (penalty) stroke and distance. Always felt its overly severe and has its origins near the start of the draft of rules

But I wonder if it’d actually change outcomes in strokeplay comps, I suspect not. Or is the benefit of no penalty stroke & distance only, would purely be to enable players to get lower handicaps... and since they would all get lower in sync then what difference does it really make

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In playing a 2nd ball off the tee it is most likely to be because your first has gone somewhere that would require a recovery shot back onto or close to the fairway plus/or penalty drop. Three off the tee (S&D) accommodates equivalent of a penalty drop plus a recovery shot to where you should be off the tee.

 

[Orikoru]

I think it's fair enough when you knock one right out of the constraints of the course. Stoke and distance does feel harsh when it's internal out of bounds though.

 

[jim8flog]

In theory

You walk to where your first ball went and cannot find it or it is OB. 1 shot

You knock another ball back to the tee 2 shots

You next shot then becomes you third shot.

I have always disliked the difference between OB and a lateral Penalty area. Knock the ball in to a lateral penalty area and elect to play outside of it and your next shot should be your 4th in equity with the OB/LOST rule. This would also match the available LR for ball lost or OB.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think it's fair enough when you knock one right out of the constraints of the course. Stoke and distance does feel harsh when it's internal out of bounds though.

An Internal OoB is a decision the club makes knowing the rules, and not for the rules to have to accommodate. An Internal OoB is often in place as a result of risk to players on another hole, staff or the public on another area of the club’s grounds, a risk that the club would want to mitigate as much as possible and hence the normal OoB penalty should apply.

 

[rulefan]

Fortunately in golf the deliberate violation of the Rules is a rare occurrence and it is an interesting demonstration of the high moral plane on which the game is universally played that those who intentionally violate the Rules soon find it difficult to arrange matches.
Since few violations are of the deliberate sort, it is obvious that the word “penalty” is not used in the Rules in its sense of being punishment.
The word “adjustment” would be more appropriate and it is here that we arrive at the principle which applies to penalties. The penalty
must not be less than the advantage which the player could derive from the particular Rule violation. In other words, whether the
violation be inadvertent or deliberate, or whether it occurs as a result of play or be due to the accidental or purposeful act of the player, or whether it be brought
about by failure to proceed in accordance with the Rules regardless of the circumstances, the penalty must always be of sufficient magnitude to
discourage the player from seeking or receiving advantage under the Rules.
The purpose of the Rules is to insure that as far as possible everyone plays the same game. The penalties serve to police the chance
that by taking advantage of an inadequately protected Rule players will play a game wholly different from golf. The penalties must be adequate
to provide this protection for if they are too light it is conceivable that golf would become a game of negotiation, with the golfer deliberately
accepting penalties in order to obtain some advantage.
Thus the Rules themselves would provide the golfer with an inexpensive method of avoiding the results of a badly played shot. Under these conditions golf
would lose all character and become a travesty.
In order to maintain this principle, it must be admitted that at times the penalties appear to be unduly severe. It is impossible to provide a
completely graduated scale of penalties, though the Rules do permit modifying the penalty of disqualification [Rule 33-7], and the penalty
applied to each particular rule must be specific and adequate at least to match the maximum advantage which the player is likely to receive. The
penalties cannot be expected, nor are they intended to exactly offset the advantage gained from the violation.

Approximately the equivalent of the one stroke penalty without the loss of distance is the penalty of loss of distance only which was
experimented with in the early 1960’s by the USGA.
Here it is assumed that a lost ball or a ball out of bounds is a question of fact, wholly beyond the control of the player, and that since the player is therefore not in a
position to create an advantage to himself from the situation, a penalty of the loss of the stroke which he has played is no less than the advantage
which he might have derived.
As was quickly discovered loss of distance only can sometimes be an advantage and not a penalty.
It is, for example, always better to play the next stroke from where the last one was played than to play from where it went, when the shanked ball goes
into the woods, the half topped approach over the green into deep rough or the too strong putt across the green into a bunker.
With the penalty for a lost ball reduced to distance only, a player can escape the results of a badly played stroke by immediately proceeding as if his ball were lost
despite the fact that it might be found easily.
A penalty must serve to police the chance that by taking advantage of an inadequately protected rule players will play a game wholly different from golf. One of the great
features of golf is that one stroke leads to the next and when it becomes easier to recover from adversity by use of the Rule book than a golf club,
the game loses its virtue.


R S Tufts
The Principles behind the Rules of Golf

 

[rulie]

I think stroke and distance is appropriate for losing your ball in play outside a penalty area or for out of bounds. It seems like the only objection here is the stroke added to the score?

You can read some history here..

Lost, Provisional, Out of Bounds

 

[Steven Rules]

Thanks rulfan and rulie. A couple of very interesting contributions there. I was also drawn to the quote at the top of rulie's linked page:

Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship. - Patrick Campbell

 

[Voyager EMH]

Off the tee, it ought to be like tennis - free second chance. It would make driving much more fun. Give that first one some larrup!

Hit 2 balls OOB though - next shot is your 5th for sure.

 

[Backsticks]

Thanks rulfan and rulie. A couple of very interesting contributions there. I was also drawn to the quote at the top of rulie's linked page:

Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship. - Patrick Campbell

Nice. Hadnt read the line before, but PC was a fine observer of matters golfing.

And so true. I long ago gave up correcting people breaking the rules, even though invariably it is to their unfair advantage. It is just too much grief.

 

[Pants]

I've always thought that you should be allowed to play a provisional ball first ...

 

[rulie]

I've always thought that you should be allowed to play a provisional ball first ...

Just whisper it to yourself and play on, quickly.

 

[Jigger]

Personally I like the challenge but most should just use the 2 shot nearest relief rule in casual play. It’s something we did when starting out

An Internal OoB is a decision the club makes knowing the rules, and not for the rules to have to accommodate. An Internal OoB is often in place as a result of risk to players on another hole, staff or the public on another area of the club’s grounds, a risk that the club would want to mitigate as much as possible and hence the normal OoB penalty should apply.

We took some of ours out. It lasted 3 months.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Personally I like the challenge but most should just use the 2 shot nearest relief rule in casual play. It’s somethingdesign of the hole we did when starting out

We took some of ours out. It lasted 3 months.

…and so your club must have accepted that the/any risk to another player or other person was insignificant. Alternatively an internal OOB might be put in place by your club to prevent players deliberately taking a route not intended in the design of the hole, but with nature being what it is, stuff grows making the ‘alternative‘ route much less attractive and so very few take it, rendering the internal OOB redundant.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I think it's fair enough when you knock one right out of the constraints of the course. Stoke and distance does feel harsh when it's internal out of bounds though.

We have internal OOB on our 8th, 9th, 17th and 18th holes.
There is a public right of way bridle path running through that part of the course which I believe is an older road than all the tarmac roads nearby.
The bridle path was there long before the golf course.
The way the two nines are separated makes it feel like an external OOB anyway, so no one has ever questioned it as far as I know.



Nice looking course, don't you think? Fancy giving it a go? Weekday guest fee £22. Oops wrong thread.

 

[Jigger]

…and so your club must have accepted that the/any risk to another player or other person was insignificant. Alternatively an internal OOB might be put in place by your club to prevent players deliberately taking a route not intended in the design of the hole, but with nature being what it is, stuff grows making the ‘alternative‘ route much less attractive and so very few take it, rendering the internal OOB redundant.

There was pressure to take some out and when they did, people started short cutting at risk to golfers on that hole so they went back in. Personally it should be a rule that a hole is played on the route intended. It wouldn’t sort all issues but most.

 

[rulie]

There was pressure to take some out and when they did, people started short cutting at risk to golfers on that hole so they went back in. Personally it should be a rule that a hole is played on the route intended. It wouldn’t sort all issues but most.

Using internal OOB is a very effective way of forcing a hole to be played as was intended - much more effective than trying to make up such a rule.
I wonder how many courses use internal OOB for their clubhouse area, parking lot, maintenance yard(s)?

 

[salfordlad]

We have internal OOB on our 8th, 9th, 17th and 18th holes.
There is a public right of way bridle path running through that part of the course which I believe is an older road than all the tarmac roads nearby.
The bridle path was there long before the golf course.
The way the two nines are separated makes it feel like an external OOB anyway, so no one has ever questioned it as far as I know.

View attachment 49248

Nice looking course, don't you think? Fancy giving it a go? Weekday guest fee £22. Oops wrong thread.

Please complete the ad - where is it?

 

[Backache]

Using internal OOB is a very effective way of forcing a hole to be played as was intended - much more effective than trying to make up such a rule.
I wonder how many courses use internal OOB for their clubhouse area, parking lot, maintenance yard(s)?

I agree about the internal OOB being effective.

But surely things like Clubhouse, parking lots etc are just ordinary OOB as they are not in play for some holes but OOB for others.