The whole "lost ball" thing... Some clarification?

[Brosh]

Hi guys!

So a lot of people are complaining about the concept of a "lost ball", and at what point it can be declared lost. It's raised some confusion. I'll give a scenario to make this a bit easier...

• Play ball, slice, lands in some trees or something.
• Play provisional ball, lands clean in the fairway next to some flaxen haired maidens with guinness and cigars.

Scenario 1:
Find original ball, play it. Down it in 4 shots (excluding driving the provisional ball)

Scenario 2:
Don't find original ball, play provisional. Down it in 4 shots (including driving the provisional ball, not including driving the first ball)

Scenario 3:
Find original ball, it's stuck in a hole up a tree, thus physically unplayable. Play the provisional, down it in 4 shots (excluding the provisional ball)

Scenario 4:
Find original ball, it's surrounded by this really long green stuff... "A bad lie"... Play the provisional, down it in 4 shots (excluding the first ball drive)

Can someone clarify what score you'd get (following the rules as you "should")? I'd guess at this:

Scenario 1: 4.
Scenario 2: 5.
Scenario 3: 5.
Scenario 4: 6.

The reasoning behind this is that although you only played 4 shots with the ball you played, in scenario 2 and 3 you take a 1 stroke penalty for a lost or non-retrievable ball, while in scenario 4 it was more about personal preference, you declared a ball unplayable by choice?

 

[palindromicbob]

Scenario 1: 4

Scenario 2: 6 (1 with the original ball, 1 penalty because it is lost and then 4 with the provisional.)

Scenario 3&4: Disqualified for playing a wrong ball or see below*.

As soon as you find the original the provisional is abandoned. If you continue with it then this is a stroke at a wrong ball, 2 stroke penalty. *Failure to correct your mistake before teeing of at the next hole is DQ. In stableford par or bogey comps then you are only DQ'd for the hole, basically an NR on the hole.

Real options for scenario 3&4.

Deem the ball unplayable and then use one of 3 options adding 1 stroke penalty.
Return to the tee. (stroke and distance)
Drop as far back in line with the hole as you want.
Drop within 2 club lengths from where the ball lies no nearer the hole. Use the point directly below the ball in the tree as your reference in scenario 3 (it may physically be a point within the tree).

If you then get down in 3 from there you have taken 5 strokes. (drive, penalty and then 3 to the hole).

If you played the provisional and holed it out and then returned to correct your mistake that would be an additional 2 stroke penalty (regardless of how many strokes taken with the provisional) thus finishing with 7.

Rules to look at:

15-4 Wrong ball
27-2 Provisional Ball
28 Unplayable Ball
32-2 Bogey,Par and Stableford Competitions/ Disqualification penalties.

 

[atticusfinch]

Hi guys!
So a lot of people are complaining about the concept of a "lost ball", and at what point it can be declared lost. It's raised some confusion. I'll give a scenario to make this a bit easier...

• Play ball, slice, lands in some trees or something.
• Play provisional ball, lands clean in the fairway next to some flaxen haired maidens with guinness and cigars.

Scenario 1:
Find original ball, play it. Down it in 4 shots (excluding driving the provisional ball) 4

Scenario 2:
Don't find original ball, play provisional. Down it in 4 shots (including driving the provisional ball, not including driving the first ball) 7

Scenario 3:
Find original ball, it's stuck in a hole up a tree, thus physically unplayable. Play the provisional, down it in 4 shots (excluding the provisional ball) DQ

Scenario 4:
Find original ball, it's surrounded by this really long green stuff... "A bad lie"... Play the provisional, down it in 4 shots (excluding the first ball drive) DQ

......

 

[palindromicbob]

......

Sorry atticus but where are you getting 7 for scenario 2.

 

[atticusfinch]

Sorry atticus but where are you getting 7 for scenario 2.

The flaxen haired maidens in the fairway. We don't have that over here.

 

[palindromicbob]

The flaxen haired maidens in the fairway. We don't have that over here.

lol. was forgetting about them. im amazed that he bothered playing on with them there. my score wouldnt matter, I be frolicking and well on my way to lung cancer and liver failure.

 

[North Mimms]

Great responses there chaps.!

(BTW - the opening post doesn't provide much clarification since it includes the mistake of playing the provisional which had to be abandoned the moment the original ball was found, no matter how horrid the lie)

 

[North Mimms]

The flaxen haired maidens in the fairway. We don't have that over here.

Cheerleaders and Budweiser?

 

[Brosh]

Scenario 1: 4

Scenario 2: 6 (1 with the original ball, 1 penalty because it is lost and then 4 with the provisional.)

Scenario 3&4: Disqualified for playing a wrong ball or see below*.

As soon as you find the original the provisional is abandoned. If you continue with it then this is a stroke at a wrong ball, 2 stroke penalty. *Failure to correct your mistake before teeing of at the next hole is DQ. In stableford par or bogey comps then you are only DQ'd for the hole, basically an NR on the hole.

Real options for scenario 3&4.

Deem the ball unplayable and then use one of 3 options adding 1 stroke penalty.
Return to the tee. (stroke and distance)
Drop as far back in line with the hole as you want.
Drop within 2 club lengths from where the ball lies no nearer the hole. Use the point directly below the ball in the tree as your reference in scenario 3 (it may physically be a point within the tree).

If you then get down in 3 from there you have taken 5 strokes. (drive, penalty and then 3 to the hole).

If you played the provisional and holed it out and then returned to correct your mistake that would be an additional 2 stroke penalty (regardless of how many strokes taken with the provisional) thus finishing with 7.

Rules to look at:

15-4 Wrong ball
27-2 Provisional Ball
28 Unplayable Ball
32-2 Bogey,Par and Stableford Competitions/ Disqualification penalties.

Awesome reply, I'll be looking through those rules this evening. Feeling a little drained after watching last nights play... I was slightly surprised when I first thought that you could just play another ball and take some penalty for it, so it makes sense that the original ball should be played if found... I guess in reality it's dictated by the club rules, which I believe at my local club say not to spend more than 5 minutes looking for a ball.

lol. was forgetting about them. im amazed that he bothered playing on with them there. my score wouldnt matter, I be frolicking and well on my way to lung cancer and liver failure.

I'm not a heavy drinker, what can I say?

Great responses there chaps.!

(BTW - the opening post doesn't provide much clarification since it includes the mistake of playing the provisional which had to be abandoned the moment the original ball was found, no matter how horrid the lie)

Truly awesome responses. Guess it's good that I know this before finding out on the course at the expense of my dignity!

Cheerleaders and Budweiser?

Budweiser will do, or Corona! Cigars or pipes should definitely be mandatory.

 

[North Mimms]

Awesome reply, I'll be looking through those rules this evening. Feeling a little drained after watching last nights play... I was slightly surprised when I first thought that you could just play another ball and take some penalty for it, so it makes sense that the original ball should be played if found... I guess in reality it's dictated by the club rules, which I believe at my local club say not to spend more than 5 minutes looking for a ball.


.

Not a local rule, more a standard Rule of Golf. If it's not found within 5 minutes, it's dead and gone wherever you play.

However, we all want to play your course, wherever it is, just to see these Guinness serving flaxen haired maidens!

 

[Ethan]

One way to look at is that if you can see/find the original ball anywhere on the golf course, in a bush, up a tree, in the cleavage of a flaxen haired maiden, anywhere that isn't out of bounds (the flaxen haired maiden may have some thoughts on that), then the provo is lifted and put in your pocket and you either play the original where it lies, apart from the cleavage of the flaxen haired maiden, otherwise you proceed as an unplayable, or if in a hazard, accordingly.

 

[chrisd]

and you either play the original where it lies, apart from the cleavage of the flaxen haired maiden.

Taylor Made will be bringing out a club to coax it back into play soon ..... And a new, better one, every 2 months! :lol:

 

[Matty]

I think the whole debate hinges on the word 'declared'. A played can 'declare' a ball unplayable and proceed under the rule to return to the point where the ball was last played or take a drop for example.

You cannot however declare a ball lost, if you hit it somewhere where you probably shouldn't have and you hit a provisional, then you can either forget about the first ball and play the provisional, this then puts that ball into play and the first ball becomes irrelevant, or you can look for the first ball for 5 minutes and if you can't find it you proceed with the provisional ball. In both cases the first ball ban be considered to be 'lost' but at not time can the player 'declare' the ball lost.

I do hope I've got that right - if not I'll be reading the rules book again!!

 

[chrisd]

I think the whole debate hinges on the word 'declared'. A played can 'declare' a ball unplayable and proceed under the rule to return to the point where the ball was last played or take a drop for example.

You cannot however declare a ball lost, if you hit it somewhere where you probably shouldn't have and you hit a provisional, then you can either forget about the first ball and play the provisional, this then puts that ball into play and the first ball becomes irrelevant, or you can look for the first ball for 5 minutes and if you can't find it you proceed with the provisional ball. In both cases the first ball ban be considered to be 'lost' but at not time can the player 'declare' the ball lost.

I do hope I've got that right - if not I'll be reading the rules book again!!

What it means is that you don't get a choice if you find your ball. If you could declare a ball lost because it's sitting much worse than the provisional, or vice versa, that would give a choice of which one you fancy playing and clearly if you're going to play a provisional in case your ball is lost then it shouldn't turn into a choice situation by default

 

[palindromicbob]

I think the whole debate hinges on the word 'declared'. A played can 'declare' a ball unplayable and proceed under the rule to return to the point where the ball was last played or take a drop for example.

You cannot however declare a ball lost, if you hit it somewhere where you probably shouldn't have and you hit a provisional, then you can either forget about the first ball and play the provisional, this then puts that ball into play and the first ball becomes irrelevant, or you can look for the first ball for 5 minutes and if you can't find it you proceed with the provisional ball. In both cases the first ball ban be considered to be 'lost' but at not time can the player 'declare' the ball lost.

I do hope I've got that right - if not I'll be reading the rules book again!!

The debate actually stems from people failing to implement new rules and abandon the old one. The option to declare a ball lost was introduced in 1956 and removed in 1964. Despite the fact that half a century has passed since the rule was removed it has still been passed on.

The only player declaration, I'm aware of, under the current rules is to declare an excess club out of play.

 

[bobmac]

If it helps....
Tell your FC that you are playing a provisional but think of it as a 'just in case ball', just in case you lose the first one.