The SNIP

[Deleted member 21258]

Re me being ageist. I clearly am not but you seem to be in favour of denying 16/17 year olds the right to vote for their future.

The law is denying them. I said I see no need for the law to change. You haven't give any reasons, apart from trying to attack my comment, good debating.

Why not allow 12 to 17 or maybe allow anyone to vote as soon as they are born, why start at 16 ??? same as why start at 18. There are a number of good reasons I would say from 18, doesn't make them right, law also states it but if I listed them, I would expect you would not see them as good reasons.

Do you also wish to deny EU Scottish residents the chance to vote..

Where did that come from, You have just made up that stuff?? When I have said or inferred that or made you believe that. Stop judging me by your standards.

All I have said, with regards to vote, vote vote, is that it is bad for the economy, stability and pitting your fellow countryman(people living in scotland, I was thinking btw) against each other. If you can not see that, then sadly your eyes have been closed by the having an independence vote only and your views of Englishman. I disagree with the simple majority voting system, as it is a silly basis to base it on, whereby such a major national change could come down to ONE persons vote.

Think I am done, I haven't once said you should not have a vote. I have tho, questioned in more than one different direction over quite a number of posts, Why Now and why every 5 years, why vote vote vote vote forever, why simple majority. Think of business and individuals and economy, look at the bigger picture in my eyes.

Have a good Christmas, off for some work, as I am done.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

so do you really think none of this has been considered?

And answered on here many many times since 2013

Sooper dooper our new Scottish shadow secretary is the Rochdale MP
I don't suppose Ian Murray can shadow everything Scottish

 

[Jacko_G]

I see WJK has kicked off again this morning.

Absolutely hilarious, you come up with that all by yourself? Thought not.

 

[woofers]

I am now at the stage of being completely worn down by the constant hectoring from Ms Sturgeon and her Parliament about a second referendum on Independence.
So as far as I am concerned I would like her wish to be granted. Have another referendum.
But whatever the result is, abide by it.
No re-runs now or in 5 years, or at anytime, because the losing side didn’t like the outcome or because the political landscape has ‘changed‘.
If it’s stay in the UK, then stay and shut up.
If it’s leave the UK, then off you go, good bye and good luck.
This might come across as capitulation. I don’t care anymore.
Probably part the plan, we all have experience of small children, or partners who just go on and on and on until you have to respond. This is not much different.

 

[Jacko_G]

I am now at the stage of being completely worn down by the constant hectoring from Ms Sturgeon and her Parliament about a second referendum on Independence.
So as far as I am concerned I would like her wish to be granted. Have another referendum.
But whatever the result is, abide by it.
No re-runs now or in 5 years, or at anytime, because the losing side didn’t like the outcome or because the political landscape has ‘changed‘.
If it’s stay in the UK, then stay and shut up.
If it’s leave the UK, then off you go, good bye and good luck.
This might come across as capitulation. I don’t care anymore.
Probably part the plan, we all have experience of small children, or partners who just go on and on and on until you have to respond. This is not much different.

Scotland like any country has a right to decide who rules them. We are 4 independent nations who have a right to be ruled within our own borders.

Look at the strides made behind the iron curtain.

Never be afraid of your destiny.

 

[drdel]

Scotland like any country has a right to decide who rules them. We are 4 independent nations who have a right to be ruled within our own borders.

Look at the strides made behind the iron curtain.

Never be afraid of your destiny.

But we are not 4 'Independent' nations as we are not a Republic or United states. It is fine if each 'nation' wll be truly independent: financially, govermentally and with their own international infrastructure of embassies, trade bodies, defence etc.

I don't see any circumstances where such true independence is a viable option for 5m Scots.

 

[patricks148]

But we are not 4 'Independent' nations as we are not a Republic or United states. It is fine if each 'nation' wll be truly independent: financially, govermentally and with their own international infrastructure of embassies, trade bodies, defence etc.

I don't see any circumstances where such true independence is a viable option for 5m Scots.

luckily its not down to you

 

[Jacko_G]

But we are not 4 'Independent' nations as we are not a Republic or United states. It is fine if each 'nation' wll be truly independent: financially, govermentally and with their own international infrastructure of embassies, trade bodies, defence etc.

I don't see any circumstances where such true independence is a viable option for 5m Scots.

I really don't care what you see. The sooner Scotland is an independent nation making their own decisions the better.

 

[drdel]

I really don't care what you see. The sooner Scotland is an independent nation making their own decisions the better.

If you don't want to see the opinions of others it's perhaps unwise to read a public forum.

 

[lobthewedge]

If you look at the age voting groups the only thing stopping Scotland from being a normal independent country is the majority of it's citizens aged over 60.
Do you think it is fair that over 85 year olds can have a vote on independence but 16/17 year olds cannot.

I dont think 16/17 year olds should have a vote on independence, it's too big for them and they have too little life experience to form a reasoned opinion.

From personal experience my friends and I were all anti English when we were teenagers and would have voted to leave in a heartbeat. we got pissed off at trivial things and were fuelled by braveheart and the kind of anti english pish that doon and co spout on here at any given opportunity.

But with age and responsibilities comes wisdom and the ability to think for ouselves. we have all lost the chip on our shoulders and are all against the break up of the union as we see the uncertainties and potential damage it could bring.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

The average 16/17 year old has not decided who/what they think nor about politics. There is little understanding of how the things they buy arrive on the shelves or how public services are delivered. Unfortunately a mostly left leaning education system and unreliable/hyped social media is their prime source of knowledge.

Scotland's issues at stake with Independence is about its place in the commercial world when the vast majority of its income comes from trade with the UK, where the BoE provides the backstop insurance to the currency you use. IMO it is far more serious issue at risk than just political dogma and popularism and your FM's simple pursuit of mechanism for 'winning' shows she does not seem to grasp it.

I dont think 16/17 year olds should have a vote on independence, it's too big for them and they have too little life experience to form a reasoned opinion.

From personal experience my friends and I were all anti English when we were teenagers and would have voted to leave in a heartbeat. we got pissed off at trivial things and were fuelled by braveheart and the kind of anti english pish that doon and co spout on here at any given opportunity.

But with age and responsibilities comes wisdom and the ability to think for ouselves. we have all lost the chip on our shoulders and are all against the break up of the union as we see the uncertainties and potential damage it could bring.

I disagree, they're old enough to pay tax, get married and have kids they should vote. Just because they may have been to school which are notoriously lefty (according to Drdel) shouldn't preclude them.from voting about the system they pay into.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

No taxation without representation.
Is a fundamental right.

 

[lobthewedge]

No taxation without representation.
Is a fundamental right.

would like to see what percentage of 16/17 year olds work full time and earn enough to pay tax?

 

[Doon frae Troon]

would like to see what percentage of 16/17 year olds work full time and earn enough to pay tax?

My 17 year old granddaughter is one for starters.
Owns her own business and drives a new Merc.
She can make over £2k on a busy week and has been known to work 14 hour days. Sometimes starting to see clients at 5.30am.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

No taxation without representation.
Is a fundamental right.

You and funkycoldmedina do realise taxation is not the basis for a vote and personally think that is right, everyone above age X should get a vote.

Also why not ages below 16, if you wish to base it on taxation, as anyone whatever age can pay tax, you may wish to read this :-

https://www.gov.uk/child-employment/paying

There are good reasons why 16/17 years old, should vote but saying based on taxation is not a reason and in fact is a bad reason IMHO.

 

[patricks148]

You and funkycoldmedina do realise taxation is not the basis for a vote and personally think that is right, everyone above age X should get a vote.

Also why not ages below 16, if you wish to base it on taxation, as anyone whatever age can pay tax, you may wish to read this :-

https://www.gov.uk/child-employment/paying

There are good reasons why 16/17 years old, should vote but saying based on taxation is not a reason and in fact is a bad reason IMHO.

not that long ago 18 year olds were thought not old enough to vote. so times change

If you can fight for your country, get married, have children.... yet your opinion dousn't count??

 

[patricks148]

Perhaps you could answer logic question like...
-Cost impact of 'border controls' on the exports to rUK (about 85%).
How a 'new currency' will function without a BoE to provide currency support
How the 7% deficit will be brought under control when it has been rising for many years: without a Barnet contribution
How Scotland will meet its share of UK national debt
How NH Scotland will meet the investment it needs
How funding for Schools / Universities can be maintained and the increases needed be achieved.
NATO commitments as a sovereign state
The consequence that USA 'shale' extraction will keep oil prices down around $60/$70 /barrel.

Shoot me as being ignorant of and anti-Scotland if you wish but it may just be a thought that's wide of the mark.

would this be offset against 300 year of tax, from its people, industry all going to westminster before devolution, of which 30 year would be the boom years fro Oils and gas... very little of which was ever re invested in Scotland
oh and lets not forget the re writing of the maritime map, which overnight moved a few of the biggest oilfields into english waters??

 

[Deleted member 21258]

not that long ago 18 year olds were thought not old enough to vote. so times change

If you can fight for your country, get married, have children.... yet your opinion dousn't count??

Exactly loads of good reasons why they should have a vote(not that your list there are necessarily good ones, as IIRC two of them reasons you need parents permissions to do??)

I agree there are lots of good reasons, some other countries already allow it(not that many but some do).

The biggest concern I would have, would be are they free of undue influence and more likely to vote as told by their parents. Yeah I know the papers/internet blah blah blah affect 18 years old or older, but at 16 you are till very young in 'mental'/undue influence terms.

As I say whatever age you say 16,17,18,15 and so on, there are plenty of reason to or not to, a line has to be crossed in the line at an age. The rest is just arguments.

But paying tax is NOT a reason as it could mean a 10 year old would vote and then anyone not paying tax should not have a vote, hmmm interesting concept that. I do note you did not disagree with me over taxation(and I didn't comment before on anything else until this post)

 

[HughJars]

Perhaps you could answer logic question like...
-Cost impact of 'border controls' on the exports to rUK (about 85%).
How a 'new currency' will function without a BoE to provide currency support
How the 7% deficit will be brought under control when it has been rising for many years: without a Barnet contribution
How Scotland will meet its share of UK national debt
How NH Scotland will meet the investment it needs
How funding for Schools / Universities can be maintained and the increases needed be achieved.
NATO commitments as a sovereign state
The consequence that USA 'shale' extraction will keep oil prices down around $60/$70 /barrel.

Shoot me as being ignorant of and anti-Scotland if you wish but it may just be a thought that's wide of the mark.

*Why would England want border controls?
*What currency we might use hasn't been decided, pound, euro, the smackeroonie
*Without Westminster administrating our finances, I'm sure we'd soon have that "7%" under control. We currently "spend" 5% of our GDP on Armed Forces, the highest in the world ...aye right. The end of Barnett is a tremendous thing.
*We won't be in the UK
*From our revenue, nearly half of which we currently don't get back
*From our revenue, nearly half of which we currently don't get back
*From our revenue, nearly half of which we currently don't get back
*And? Due to the 2015 crash, costs were slashed, most companies are now profitable at over $30pb

 

[patricks148]

Exactly loads of good reasons why they should have a vote(not that your list there are necessarily good ones, as IIRC two of them reasons you need parents permissions to do??)

I agree there are lots of good reasons, some other countries already allow it(not that many but some do).

The biggest concern I would have, would be are they free of undue influence and more likely to vote as told by their parents. Yeah I know the papers/internet blah blah blah affect 18 years old or older, but at 16 you are till very young in 'mental'/undue influence terms.

As I say whatever age you say 16,17,18,15 and so on, there are plenty of reason to or not to, a line has to be crossed in the line at an age. The rest is just arguments.

But paying tax is NOT a reason as it could mean a 10 year old would vote and then anyone not paying tax should not have a vote, hmmm interesting concept that. I do note you did not disagree with me over taxation(and I didn't comment before on anything else until this post)

i didn't mention tax as there are plenty of reasons why you wouldn't pay tax anyway.. even at 18 or even 21.

as for the other things, TBh i not sure what you would need your parents permis for, but my main argument is that not that long ago 18 was thought too young ..

you can have a child... i don't think you need your parents permis for that and if so vote for the wellbeing of your child