The great drive for dough putt for show debate thread.

[sunshine]

I understand, but whether it's a long drive and a mid iron or a short drive and a long iron, I'm probably missing the green 90% of the time from outside 150 yards. My point is that for my game at my club I feel that it's generally the success of the short pitch or chip that has most influence on whether I walk away with par, bogey or double.
Again, completely personal, anecdotal evidence, but in 2021 I was very accepting of my ability (lack of) and spent the Summer tapping driver somewhere safe, tapping an iron somewhere safe, chipping towards the hole and putting once or twice. Shorter par 4s I would just hit 2 9-irons and mostly get a par. I won stuff and my HI tumbled.
In 2022 I decided to go for it. Big drives were launched and GIR was the objective on every hole. It was a very bad year. Later in 2022 and currently I'm trying to dial it down a bit but it's very hard to go back to being happy with hitting it shorter, even when experience tells me it was more successful.

I know you acknowledge that your experience is anecdotal, but it seems like you are playing a very short course where you don’t need distance. Maybe this is skewing the perception?

I only hit a 9 iron 140, so hitting two 9 irons won’t get me on any green in regulation on my course. How far do you smash a 9 iron?

 

[RichA]

I know you acknowledge that your experience is anecdotal, but it seems like you are playing a very short course where you don’t need distance. Maybe this is skewing the perception?

I only hit a 9 iron 140, so hitting two 9 irons won’t get me on any green in regulation on my course. How far do you smash a 9 iron?

Sorry - your assumption is wrong. It's probably a bit longer than the average little local club.
6600 from the white tees.
6400 from the yellows.
Most of the par 4 holes are over 400 yards. The longest is 466.
The 2 shorter holes I mentioned are both just under 300 yards. In 2021 I had Ping G425 irons. Total distance was generally about 150 with the 9-iron.

 

[Region3]

"Improve your driving for long term and lasting improvements, putt well on the day to win competitions".

Or you could say the former gets you a well deserved handicap cut so that the latter then gets you into the top 10

 

[Region3]

Who made you thread moderator?

You probably won’t find someone who has won a comp with 42 putts. Just as you won’t find someone who hit 10 tee shots OB who has won a comp because their putting made up for it.

I know this is not what you meant, but from reading the WHS thread I think there might well be a few comp winners recently with 42 putts.

 

[Region3]

The figures are not that different in the range you quote.
The key difference between elite putters and hc putters is lag distance from long putts. Top golfers will only 3 putt about once ever two rounds. Mid hc golfers will 3 putt about 5 times every two rounds.
Putting will never bring more than a few shots score improvement for a mid hc on average.
Distance can deliver him 15 shots improvement scope.
It isnt about how many putts one hits - its about what scope for improvement lies in each shot. Most putts have no shots gained improvement scope, even for a poor putter.

Apologies for not understanding, can you elaborate on the bold bit please.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I know this is not what you meant, but from reading the WHS thread I think there might well be a few comp winners recently with 42 putts.

Fair point

 

[Backsticks]

Apologies for not understanding, can you elaborate on the bold bit please.

Meaning the long game is the only way to make big strides from mid hc to elite. Top golfers are about +7. And taking mid hc to be about 15. Can be debated, but they are ballpark for this purpose. Thats a gap of 22 shots. Its simply humanly impossible to make big inroads into that 22 by putting alone. Nobody putts to the level of being able to gain more than about 4 of those shots. Each might have their limit, but it is humanly possible to bridge about 15 of them through distance. And thats what elite golfer ALL do. Effectively distance is the master governor.

Summing them up :
Each 10 yards extra driving is worth half a shot a round. 15 hcs average about 210yds. Elites about 300yds. So thats 4.5 shots on driver.
That length also translates to strokes gained on second shots (hitting an 8 iron 180 rather then hybrid, hitting par 5 in two not three, playing wedges for many seconds) of a further half shot per hole for a 300 yard drive level player. So about 9 shots
Putting gains are 4-5 shots.
Short game 3-4 shots. (scope is more limited here for the elite golfer - he hits more greens. Despite his greatly better short game than the 15hc, it cannot deliver that many shots saved - he just doesnt get to hit as many ! They are all about low70s% for GIR)
Which is about the 22 shot gap.

So he can improve his putting to a level never achieved by anybody. But the average 15hc still probably wont even become a single figure guy. He needs distance to unlock the big jump to those 15 shots.

 

[Region3]

Meaning the long game is the only way to make big strides from mid hc to elite. Top golfers are about +7. And taking mid hc to be about 15. Can be debated, but the are ballpark for this purpose. Thats a gap of 22 shots. Its simply humanly impossible to make big inroads into that 22 by putting alone. Nobody putts to the level of being able to gain more than about 4 of those shots. Each might have their limit, but it is humanly possible to bridge about 15 of them through distance. And thats what elite golfer ALL do. Effectively distance is the master governor.

Summing them up :
Each 10 yards extra driving is worth half a shot a round. 15 hcs average about 210yds. Elites about 300yds. So thats 4.5 shots on driver.
That length also translates to strokes gained on second shots (hitting an 8 iron 180 rather then hybrid, hitting par 5 in two not three, playing wedges for many seconds) of a further half shot per hole for a 300 yard drive level player. So about 9 shots
Putting gains are 4-5 shots.
Short game 3-4 shots. (scope is more limited here for the elite golfer - he hits more greens. Despite his greatly better short game than the 15hc, it cannot delivery that many shots saved - he just doesnt get to hit as many ! They are all about low70s% for GIR)
Which is about the 22 shot gap.

So he can improve his putting to a level never achieved by anybody. But the average 15hc still probably wont even become a single figure guy. He needs distance to unlock the big jump to those 15 shots.

Some of this I agree with and some I don’t, but neither of us are going to change the others mind so I will just say thank you for taking the time to post a detailed reply

 

[Deleted member 31467]

Meaning the long game is the only way to make big strides from mid hc to elite. Top golfers are about +7. And taking mid hc to be about 15. Can be debated, but the are ballpark for this purpose. Thats a gap of 22 shots. Its simply humanly impossible to make big inroads into that 22 by putting alone. Nobody putts to the level of being able to gain more than about 4 of those shots. Each might have their limit, but it is humanly possible to bridge about 15 of them through distance. And thats what elite golfer ALL do. Effectively distance is the master governor.

Summing them up :
Each 10 yards extra driving is worth half a shot a round. 15 hcs average about 210yds. Elites about 300yds. So thats 4.5 shots on driver.
That length also translates to strokes gained on second shots (hitting an 8 iron 180 rather then hybrid, hitting par 5 in two not three, playing wedges for many seconds) of a further half shot per hole for a 300 yard drive level player. So about 9 shots
Putting gains are 4-5 shots.
Short game 3-4 shots. (scope is more limited here for the elite golfer - he hits more greens. Despite his greatly better short game than the 15hc, it cannot delivery that many shots saved - he just doesnt get to hit as many ! They are all about low70s% for GIR)
Which is about the 22 shot gap.

So he can improve his putting to a level never achieved by anybody. But the average 15hc still probably wont even become a single figure guy. He needs distance to unlock the big jump to those 15 shots.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I thought you’d flounced with Bob?

What is so funny?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Don't bother.
I can hit my drives as long and as straight as I can, but I am not going to get the dough unless I putt for it on the day.
I've given my anecdote of this experience.
I would like to hear from someone who won a comp with 42 putts, because they hit such marvellous tee shots.

I suppose if my putting is rubbish then no matter how good the rest of my game is, I’ll never win anything. But that doesn’t mean that putting has to be the best or most admired and showy aspect of my game - it just has to be as good as is necessary and sufficient to get the job done.

 

[Backsticks]

I suppose if my putting is rubbish then no matter how good the rest of my game is, I’ll never win anything. But that doesn’t mean that putting has to be the best or most admired and showy aspect of my game - it just has to be as good as is necessary and sufficient to get the job done.

No, even if your putting is rubbish, you can win. In fact, the more rubbish a putter you are, the more likely you are to win.
Your rubbish overall putting will be reflected in you hc. So it doesnt hurt you in handicap golf. Winners are strongly influenced by the golden putter day. Thats why they mistakenly think good putting is the key to winning, or good standard golf. But as a bad putter, you too will still have your golden day ! With even more scope for the dice to fall the right way for you than the good putter, and gain you shots on your normal score. And win !

 

[Orikoru]

No, even if your putting is rubbish, you can win. In fact, the more rubbish a putter you are, the more likely you are to win.
Your rubbish overall putting will be reflected in you hc. So it doesnt hurt you in handicap golf. Winners are strongly influenced by the golden putter day. Thats why they mistakenly think good putting is the key to winning, or good standard golf. But as a bad putter, you too will still have your golden day ! With even more scope for the dice to fall the right way for you than the good putter, and gain you shots on your normal score. And win !

So now it's, drive for show, putt badly most of the time but really well once for pro shop vouchers.

It's really losing its snappiness.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

So now it's, drive for show, putt badly most of the time but really well once for pro shop vouchers.

It's really losing its snappiness.

Indeed

Putting well is one thing. But can you putt well when under intense pressure when there is £30 of shop credit on the line

 

[Backache]

Meaning the long game is the only way to make big strides from mid hc to elite. Top golfers are about +7. And taking mid hc to be about 15. Can be debated, but they are ballpark for this purpose. Thats a gap of 22 shots. Its simply humanly impossible to make big inroads into that 22 by putting alone. Nobody putts to the level of being able to gain more than about 4 of those shots. Each might have their limit, but it is humanly possible to bridge about 15 of them through distance. And thats what elite golfer ALL do. Effectively distance is the master governor.

Summing them up :
Each 10 yards extra driving is worth half a shot a round. 15 hcs average about 210yds. Elites about 300yds. So thats 4.5 shots on driver.
That length also translates to strokes gained on second shots (hitting an 8 iron 180 rather then hybrid, hitting par 5 in two not three, playing wedges for many seconds) of a further half shot per hole for a 300 yard drive level player. So about 9 shots
Putting gains are 4-5 shots.
Short game 3-4 shots. (scope is more limited here for the elite golfer - he hits more greens. Despite his greatly better short game than the 15hc, it cannot deliver that many shots saved - he just doesnt get to hit as many ! They are all about low70s% for GIR)
Which is about the 22 shot gap.

So he can improve his putting to a level never achieved by anybody. But the average 15hc still probably wont even become a single figure guy. He needs distance to unlock the big jump to those 15 shots.

I rather suspect if you leave out juniors the majority of midhandicappers who become low single figure handicap golfers are those who already have a reasonably high swing speed and learn how to use it better.
Modest increases in swing speed are attainalbe for many but big jumps are not easy. There are plenty of midhandciappers faster than the average.

 

[sunshine]

Sorry - your assumption is wrong. It's probably a bit longer than the average little local club.
6600 from the white tees.
6400 from the yellows.
Most of the par 4 holes are over 400 yards. The longest is 466.
The 2 shorter holes I mentioned are both just under 300 yards. In 2021 I had Ping G425 irons. Total distance was generally about 150 with the 9-iron.

Right . When you mentioned being able to hit par 4s with two 9 irons I did wonder if you were a tour player or a member on a very short course

 

[RichA]

Right . When you mentioned being able to hit par 4s with two 9 irons I did wonder if you were a tour player or a member on a very short course

Neither. I can hit the ball longer than most of my age and general ability, but have massive issues with direction control. I play golf like I batted at cricket - a tail ender with a scoring rate of 12 runs per over but an average of about 10.

 

[Backsticks]

I rather suspect if you leave out juniors the majority of midhandicappers who become low single figure handicap golfers are those who already have a reasonably high swing speed and learn how to use it better.
Modest increases in swing speed are attainalbe for many but big jumps are not easy. There are plenty of midhandciappers faster than the average.

Of course. Thats the nature of averages.
And would agree, mids who become low single digit, probably have the speed to begin with.
There was in the past though, a tendency to view speed/length as more of a you-have-what-you-have fixed thing. Now its clear that the majority can probably gain 5-10mph club head speed. And thats a useful difference.

Also, probably influenced by old litterature, and those of use who remember using wooden woods, distance would have been regarded as less limiting a factor in ones golfing potential in the past. Now it is clear, from better data, and the step change in equipment 25ish years ago, that distance is the unavoidable key. You will not reach low singles if you only hit it 200yds. You probably play off low singles or better, if you can hit it 290, almost no matter what else the rest of your game.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

No, even if your putting is rubbish, you can win. In fact, the more rubbish a putter you are, the more likely you are to win.
Your rubbish overall putting will be reflected in you hc. So it doesnt hurt you in handicap golf. Winners are strongly influenced by the golden putter day. Thats why they mistakenly think good putting is the key to winning, or good standard golf. But as a bad putter, you too will still have your golden day ! With even more scope for the dice to fall the right way for you than the good putter, and gain you shots on your normal score. And win !

Wasn’t talking about it in context of my handicap…was prob more thinking inconsistency within a round. I still believe that the root of a good score is more being accurate and consistent off the tee, without the need for great length. My ‘driving for show’ is around my accuracy and consistency…most certainly not my length off the tee. I have an objective to increase my distance off the tee, but my priority is building accuracy and consistency.

 

[Backsticks]

Yes, what is so funny ?