The Footie Thread

[Swango1980]

Most Clubs have finite budgets , its costs money both in terms of fees and wages

Teams need quality players throughout the squad but there is always a drop off when clubs lose one of their better players

It’s impossible to cover everyone to the same level

I’m going to suggest not one club has played their “best 11” in two games consecutive- it just doesn’t happen , players are always getting rotated and the drop off will be in line to what budget a club operates under

I don’t think any club ever just aims to have a strong 11 - they will always be looking for the strength in the squad as well

As an example this summer we brought in 4 midfielders- two I suspect if everyone was fit wouldn’t be in the starting 11 but it was about getting strength in across the area

City have by far the strongest squad - they spent £200 plus on four players - I suspect only one would be in their first choice and maybe even none

That sort of money clubs can’t even spent on their main players

So it’s not a surprise that when city lose a £100mil player they can play their £60mil player , it’s not a surprise to anyone that they are the strongest squad by a mile

I'd suggest otherwise. Teams do field unchanged sides. Man Utd have just played Onana, Dalot, Varane, Maguire, Shaw, Casemiro, Mainoo, Bruno, Rashford, Garnacho and Hojlund for 2 consecutive games. And assuming none were to get injured (which is already not true as Shaw is injured), I'd have expected the same line up next game.

I think most managers will know what their best 11 is, especially after some good results. And unless they are playing in the EFL cup, I reckon a lot of them will be too nervous about rotating players and risk losing a winning run. Unless they are super confident in their squad players.

Just saw some interesting analysis of last season, where they plotted teams based on their starting 11 consistency (and sub consistency). They looked at all games, but a team that didn't change their starting 11 or subs at all would get a game score of 100%. Over the 38 games, the two most consistent sides where Arsenal (86.8%) and Newcastle (85.0%). It is probably no surprise either then that they were probably two clubs that overachieved last year compared to predictions at start of season. I'd imagine a lot of their rotations were forced as well, rather than done tactically to rest players. The most inconsistent squad in terms of selections was Chelsea (67.9%). So probably not much of a surprise how their season went.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'd suggest otherwise. Teams do field unchanged sides. Man Utd have just played Onana, Dalot, Varane, Maguire, Shaw, Casemiro, Mainoo, Bruno, Rashford, Garnacho and Hojlund for 2 consecutive games. And assuming none were to get injured (which is already not true as Shaw is injured), I'd have expected the same line up next game.

I think most managers will know what their best 11 is, especially after some good results. And unless they are playing in the EFL cup, I reckon a lot of them will be too nervous about rotating players and risk losing a winning run. Unless they are super confident in their squad players.

Just saw some interesting analysis of last season, where they plotted teams based on their starting 11 consistency (and sub consistency). They looked at all games, but a team that didn't change their starting 11 or subs at all would get a game score of 100%. Over the 38 games, the two most consistent sides where Arsenal (86.8%) and Newcastle (85.0%). It is probably no surprise either then that they were probably two clubs that overachieved last year compared to predictions at start of season. I'd imagine a lot of their rotations were forced as well, rather than done tactically to rest players. The most inconsistent squad in terms of selections was Chelsea (67.9%). So probably not much of a surprise how their season went.

Is that your “best 11”

Would Martinez not be in the best 11 ? Maybe also Mount

Arteta doesn’t appear to either rotate enough or not trust the players in the squad hence why they run out of steam last year and prob will do again this season

 

[Swango1980]

Is that your “best 11”

Would Martinez not be in the best 11 ? Maybe also Mount

Arteta doesn’t appear to either rotate enough or not trust the players in the squad hence why they run out of steam last year and prob will do again this season

"Best 11" as of this moment.

If you are talking about Best 11 if everyone was fit, then it would likely be

Onana, Dalot, Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Mainoo, Casemiro, Bruno, Garnacho, Rashford and Hojlund

And that is the team I would not be surprised to see in consecutive games. What players can "easily" be rotated? Perhaps Wan Bissaka with Dalot, although Dalot has emerged quite well lately. I don't know where Mount fits. He could probably replace Bruno, but Bruno never gets injured or dropped. Rashford has been frustrating, so could he be rested? Occasionally he will, but then given what people think of Antony then you could argue Rashford should be used more often instead. Perhaps Mount can play out wide when he is fit.

But, when you are only looking at one or 2 positions where the bench isn't a huge downgrade on the first 11, you can see why teams will not often be rotated unless forced to do so. It would be interesting to hear from fans of other clubs who they think their first 11 is, and how many in that first 11 could easily be rotated without much problem. At Liverpool, I suspect you could rotate one of your CB positions Perhaps there are 2 or 3 CM positions that could easily be rotated, as I don't know who would be in the 1st 11 out of Endo, Thiago, Szoboszlai and MacAllister. And as I said previously, apart from Salah, you could probably rotate between Diaz, Jota, Gapko and Nunez fairly easily. I'm not sure any of those stand out to be much better than another?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I'd suggest otherwise. Teams do field unchanged sides. Man Utd have just played Onana, Dalot, Varane, Maguire, Shaw, Casemiro, Mainoo, Bruno, Rashford, Garnacho and Hojlund for 2 consecutive games. And assuming none were to get injured (which is already not true as Shaw is injured), I'd have expected the same line up next game.

I think most managers will know what their best 11 is, especially after some good results. And unless they are playing in the EFL cup, I reckon a lot of them will be too nervous about rotating players and risk losing a winning run. Unless they are super confident in their squad players.

Just saw some interesting analysis of last season, where they plotted teams based on their starting 11 consistency (and sub consistency). They looked at all games, but a team that didn't change their starting 11 or subs at all would get a game score of 100%. Over the 38 games, the two most consistent sides where Arsenal (86.8%) and Newcastle (85.0%). It is probably no surprise either then that they were probably two clubs that overachieved last year compared to predictions at start of season. I'd imagine a lot of their rotations were forced as well, rather than done tactically to rest players. The most inconsistent squad in terms of selections was Chelsea (67.9%). So probably not much of a surprise how their season went.

What was Brighton's rotation as they also well over achieved last season?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

"Best 11" as of this moment.

If you are talking about Best 11 if everyone was fit, then it would likely be

Onana, Dalot, Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Mainoo, Casemiro, Bruno, Garnacho, Rashford and Hojlund

And that is the team I would not be surprised to see in consecutive games. What players can "easily" be rotated? Perhaps Wan Bissaka with Dalot, although Dalot has emerged quite well lately. I don't know where Mount fits. He could probably replace Bruno, but Bruno never gets injured or dropped. Rashford has been frustrating, so could he be rested? Occasionally he will, but then given what people think of Antony then you could argue Rashford should be used more often instead. Perhaps Mount can play out wide when he is fit.

But, when you are only looking at one or 2 positions where the bench isn't a huge downgrade on the first 11, you can see why teams will not often be rotated unless forced to do so. It would be interesting to hear from fans of other clubs who they think their first 11 is, and how many in that first 11 could easily be rotated without much problem. At Liverpool, I suspect you could rotate one of your CB positions Perhaps there are 2 or 3 CM positions that could easily be rotated, as I don't know who would be in the 1st 11 out of Endo, Thiago, Szoboszlai and MacAllister. And as I said previously, apart from Salah, you could probably rotate between Diaz, Jota, Gapko and Nunez fairly easily. I'm not sure any of those stand out to be much better than another?

So as I said - not played your best 11 two games in a row - not best 11 right now

And I suspect at the start of season Mainoo and potentially Garnacho wouldn’t have been part of that with Martial and Mount fit

as for Liverpools best 11

All depends on the opposition

Against City

Allison
TAA
Konate
Vvd
Robertson

Endo
MacAllister
Dom

Nunez
Jota
Mo

But easily a case for

Thiago in instead of Gary Mac
Jones I think Klopp would put in
Diaz up top

we have over the year brought academy players in due to injuries

Chambers played when we had no Left backs

Then Bradley we lost TAA as well

Quansah when Matip was out

And players like McConnell and Clark getting run outs

Think we have had 23 players who have played 10 games or more

Then another 9 below that

We have certainly used the full squad

 

[Swango1980]

What was Brighton's rotation as they also well over achieved last season?

They were the 6th most consistent side, 82.5%.

The graph shows a clear upward pattern between comparison to expected position and actual position with team consistency. There are exceptions to the rule. Man City were the 2nd most inconsistent team (72.7%) and yet still performed a bit better than expectation. Man Utd were 15th most consistent (78.1%) and were a good way better than expectations.

At the other end, Everton were 3rd most consistent (84.4%) and performed worse than expectations.

However, a lot of the most consistent sides did well, like Arsenal, Newcastle, Villa, Fulham, Brighton and Brentford. The most inconsistent sides, except City, were Chelsea, Liverpool, Southampton, West Ham, Wolves and Leicester. A lot of them struggled more than one would expect.

 

[Swango1980]

So as I said - not played your best 11 two games in a row - not best 11 right now

And I suspect at the start of season Mainoo and potentially Garnacho wouldn’t have been part of that with Martial and Mount fit

as for Liverpools best 11

All depends on the opposition

Against City

Allison
TAA
Konate
Vvd
Robertson

Endo
MacAllister
Dom

Nunez
Jota
Mo

But easily a case for

Thiago in instead of Gary Mac
Jones I think Klopp would put in
Diaz up top

we have over the year brought academy players in due to injuries

Chambers played when we had no Left backs

Then Bradley we lost TAA as well

Quansah when Matip was out

And players like McConnell and Clark getting run outs

Think we have had 23 players who have played 10 games or more

Then another 9 below that

We have certainly used the full squad

Is Gary Mac the nickname of Alexis Mac Allister?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

At the other end, Everton were 3rd most consistent (84.4%) and performed worse than expectations.

When you consistently pick players that can't score you get a consistently bad outcome . Good job we have learned this year .

 

[Liverbirdie]

I mentioned Thiago, he was one of the 2 I mentioned (i.e. Robertson as well). I was picking out key players as well, not every squad player. I don't know the ins and outs of Liverpool's squad like you, but didn't think 19 year old Bajcetic was a key player for Liverpool, having made 11 league appearances since 2020. I'm sure he is an emerging talent, but he is no Salah, TAA or Van Dijk yet.

Matip was still available for the 1st part of the season (first 14 games I think), starting 9 and on the bench for 5. I'm never sure if Matip is a key player or not, or whether Gomez is the preferred option with Van Dijk, or whether both are just rotated.

So, for the players Liverpool did have injured for the first few months of the season, I certainly think they were much luckier than several other teams.

Matip was 1st choice at the time
Bajcetic was arguably the 1st choice when Fabinho was there, definitely after he left.
Allison on his 2nd injury
Robertson out for months
Jota out for 2 months, now again
Konate out for a month or two but spread over numerous short times
Szoboslai out for a month, now on his second stint
Salah lost for 6 weeks, all told.
TAA will have been out for approx 2 months all told, when this injury finishes
Doak (squad player) out for months
Endo missing for 5-6 weeks at the Asian cup

Lets face it, you've come out with a statement that was outrageously incorrect, and trying to gloss over what you can.

Newcastle, Spurs, Chelsea and others have also had levels of injury levels equal or up there with us, BUT as Phil said, we are operating at the top of the league and in 3 cup comps for the time being so what he said was bang on.

Its a question of scale, and if you can't understand that, I wont hit you with 50 paragraphs of bilge.

However, when he says something good or true (no often, Mind) , it is not di rigeur to agree with him on this form, and safer to keep in with the keyboard warriors and the haters, rather than step out of line and say - you know what, you're right.

 

[Swango1980]

Matip was 1st choice at the time
Bajcetic was arguably the 1st choice when Fabinho was there, definitely after he left.
Allison on his 2nd injury
Robertson out for months
Jota out for 2 months, now again
Konate out for a month or two but spread over numerous short times
Szoboslai out for a month, now on his second stint
Salah lost for 6 weeks, all told.
TAA will have been out for approx 2 months all told, when this injury finishes
Doak (squad player) out for months
Endo missing for 5-6 weeks at the Asian cup

Lets face it, you've come out with a statement that was outrageously incorrect, and trying to gloss over what you can.

Newcastle, Spurs, Chelsea and others have also had levels of injury levels equal or up there with us, BUT as Phil said, we are operating at the top of the league and in 3 cup comps for the time being so what he said was bang on.

Its a question of scale, and if you can't understand that, I wont hit you with 50 paragraphs of bilge.

However, when he says something good or true (no often, Mind) , it is not di rigeur to agree with him on this form, and safer to keep in with the keyboard warriors and the haters, rather than step out of line and say - you know what, you're right.

You are perfectly falling in line with my expectations of Liverpool fans. Well done

At no point have I said Liverpool are not currently suffering quite big injury issues. So there is no need to quote who is injured now. I was making the point that Liverpool didn't suffer too badly compared to others from the start of the season. Hence, it has probably allowed them to do well up to this point. If Liverpool drop off in form in the next few months, then I will happily acknowledge that several key and unfortunate injuries could well have contributed to that. Just like several key and unfortunate injuries have hampered other clubs pretty much from the start of the season.

Allison is irrelevant to my point, he played 21 of your first 23 games. Konate seems to have been officially injured in 3 of your 25 games, and started or been on the bench for the rest. Szoboszlai started in 19 of your first 20 games, and played in all 20 at some point. He has become injured more recently. Salah started your first 20 games, then went to AFCON and got injured. TAA played in 18 of your first 20 games, injured for a game, came back and then got injured after another 2/3 games. Don't care about Doak as I assume he is not a critical loss to Liverpool, and I think Endo missed 3 PL games due to Asian Cup?

 

[Liverbirdie]

You are perfectly falling in line with my expectations of Liverpool fans. Well done

At no point have I said Liverpool are not currently suffering quite big injury issues. So there is no need to quote who is injured now. I was making the point that Liverpool didn't suffer too badly compared to others from the start of the season. Hence, it has probably allowed them to do well up to this point. If Liverpool drop off in form in the next few months, then I will happily acknowledge that several key and unfortunate injuries could well have contributed to that. Just like several key and unfortunate injuries have hampered other clubs pretty much from the start of the season.

Allison is irrelevant to my point, he played 21 of your first 23 games. Konate seems to have been officially injured in 3 of your 25 games, and started or been on the bench for the rest. Szoboszlai started in 19 of your first 20 games, and played in all 20 at some point. He has become injured more recently. Salah started your first 20 games, then went to AFCON and got injured. TAA played in 18 of your first 20 games, injured for a game, came back and then got injured after another 2/3 games. Don't care about Doak as I assume he is not a critical loss to Liverpool, and I think Endo missed 3 PL games due to Asian Cup?

You arent falling in with my impression of Man U fans, or should I say match going, proper manc "supporters", who are closer to scousers/Liverpool fans more than some would like to admit.

However, you are the man U version of Liverpool Phil, I can tell you that.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

@Swango1980 @Liverbirdie this spat is boring now, no more please.

 

[Swango1980]

@Swango1980 @Liverbirdie this spat is boring now, no more please.

No problem. Especially as his last point had absolutely no relevance to any of the footballing points I was making, so difficult to provide a football related response

 

[Pin-seeker]

https://x.com/rmadridinfo/status/1760349633656520874?s=46

Blimey can’t believe it’s been a year

 

[Swango1980]

https://x.com/rmadridinfo/status/1760349633656520874?s=46

Blimey can’t believe it’s been a year

It is hilarious, but also true that this has been me for a fair few Man Utd games over last few years. Especially the second half of the video

 

[Tashyboy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68361025

So Sir Jim Ratcliffe has settled into life at the Old Trafford Circus by announcing himself as the resident clown.
Bottom line he is after taxpayers money to build a state of the art national stadium in the North. Not only that he states it will massively boost The south of Manchester area. Now without sounding uncouth, Old Trafford is a dump. It is the old Wembley of the North. It wants flattening. But why am I supposed to Pay towards that Or any other taxpayer.
For the record Jim, the largest council house in the country is to the east of Manchester. That has been extended and improved by the OWNERS money. Same as Arsenal, Spurs, etc etc. Not only that, the eastlands ( formerly known as the wastelands) has been massively regenerated with the OWNERS money. The Glaziers have taken hundreds of millions out of Utd and now Jimbo the clown wants City fans to fund Utd.
City are looking at 115 FFP charges and Jimbo gets around that by spending my money. I can only think he has had a bang on the head.

 

[Tashyboy]

https://x.com/rmadridinfo/status/1760349633656520874?s=46

Blimey can’t believe it’s been a year

On a positive note, City knocked them out and won the trophy

 

[TimShady]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68361025

So Sir Jim Ratcliffe has settled into life at the Old Trafford Circus by announcing himself as the resident clown.
Bottom line he is after taxpayers money to build a state of the art national stadium in the North. Not only that he states it will massively boost The south of Manchester area. Now without sounding uncouth, Old Trafford is a dump. It is the old Wembley of the North. It wants flattening. But why am I supposed to Pay towards that Or any other taxpayer.
For the record Jim, the largest council house in the country is to the east of Manchester. That has been extended and improved by the OWNERS money. Same as Arsenal, Spurs, etc etc. Not only that, the eastlands ( formerly known as the wastelands) has been massively regenerated with the OWNERS money. The Glaziers have taken hundreds of millions out of Utd and now Jimbo the clown wants City fans to fund Utd.
City are looking at 115 FFP charges and Jimbo gets around that by spending my money. I can only think he has had a bang on the head.

Shame about the murders your owners sanction.

 

[Junior]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68361025

So Sir Jim Ratcliffe has settled into life at the Old Trafford Circus by announcing himself as the resident clown.
Bottom line he is after taxpayers money to build a state of the art national stadium in the North. Not only that he states it will massively boost The south of Manchester area. Now without sounding uncouth, Old Trafford is a dump. It is the old Wembley of the North. It wants flattening. But why am I supposed to Pay towards that Or any other taxpayer.
For the record Jim, the largest council house in the country is to the east of Manchester. That has been extended and improved by the OWNERS money. Same as Arsenal, Spurs, etc etc. Not only that, the eastlands ( formerly known as the wastelands) has been massively regenerated with the OWNERS money. The Glaziers have taken hundreds of millions out of Utd and now Jimbo the clown wants City fans to fund Utd.
City are looking at 115 FFP charges and Jimbo gets around that by spending my money. I can only think he has had a bang on the head.

I actually don’t disagree with what you’re saying Tash regarding tax payers money rebuilding OT. However, wasn’t the Etihad build by Sport England and Manchester Council for the commonwealth games ? You’re right in that City now rent it off the council, hence all the “Council House” chants.

 

[Tashyboy]

I actually don’t disagree with what you’re saying Tash regarding tax payers money rebuilding OT. However, wasn’t the Etihad build by Sport England and Manchester Council for the commonwealth games ? You’re right in that City now rent it off the council, hence all the “Council House” chants.

It was but City pay rent back every week and will do for 250 years. Predominately the stadium was built for the commonwealth games. If City didn’t move. There would have been no games. Oddly enough Missis T bought me as a pressie copy’s of plans for the redevelopment of Maine rd which City had in the pipeline until the council called with the move proposal.